AR-15 affordable defensive load query

[BWT]

Alright gents,

I'm looking for an obtainable, feasibly priced (under $1.00 a round... I mean I get it the latest and greatest are impressive, such as Mk 262, etc), defensive carbine load.

I realize the 5.56/.223 typically works effectively in most designs that include the following for defense:

A. 5.56mm velocities, the higher the velocity, the higher the chances of fragmentation and the longer distances it will fragment at.
B. Projectiles featuring a cannelure. Cannelure are beneficial in this round for two reasons. One, 5.56mm rounds usually fragment at the cannelure in yaw. Two, in 12.5-16" carbines such as I have, there's a chance they can damage a non crimped/cannelure cartridge while chambering. On the Mk 262, it was a fight to get Sierra to cannelure their 77 gr projectiles because they thought it would diminish accuracy. However, for a combat cartridge used in Auto loading rifles, it was necessary.
C. Jacket thickness, the name of the game for a certain desired effect with 5.56mm cartridges and fragmentation at range has been make longer bullets, with cannelures, and thinner projectile jackets.

That trio leads to a 5.56mm that will fragment well (ETA: at distance), shoot accurately and feed reliably.

I'm aware of two bullets that for that criteria well, Black Hills Mk 262 Mod 1 and Hornady 75 gr. 5.56 TAP (with their T2 projectile).

My problem is Black hills likes civilians, so they make Mk 262 available to the public. Hornady doesn't think you deserve the latest and greatest, because you're a civilian. So, Hornady only sells to that load to L.E. Distributors and the military.

I can't find any of either, and when I can, it's about $1.00+ per round.

So I bought some M193 today at a local store, come home and see Doc's stickies article on poor performance out of M193.

So, I open my plea to all for guidance.

Here's my issue with some of his standard recommended loadings. They're largely selected because of their barrier penetration. I live in apartment complex, so if I use an AR for home defense and miss the individual, I don't want the projectile to be effective and penetrate lots of windows, wood boards, appliances, or dry wall. I don't want great barrier penetration. I'd just buy M855 if I did.

So I'd like to hear other's thoughts.

God bless!

Brandon

[BoppaBear]

It's been said that M855 actually fragments more than the "steel penetrator" designation suggests.

I found some 75 gr TAP, and it functions well. Honestly, from what I've seen, $1 per round is pretty good for it. Have you checked out SG Ammo? They had a good selection of "defensive" rounds last I looked.

[TR675]

For a fairly in-depth look at M193 and M855 check out ARF.COM's Ammo Oracle. Some info is dated so use your critical thinking cap.

Pushing either 193 or 855 out of a 16 in. barrel at inside-the-apt distances...well, if that's not working for you I don't think your problems are going to be solved with super fancy boolets, you know? I used to chase the latest and greatest ammo technology myself until I realized just how expensive and frustrating that is. Better off prating putting the available and cost effective stuff where it belongs.

[BWT]

For a fairly in-depth look at M193 and M855 check out ARF.COM's Ammo Oracle. Some info is dated so use your critical thinking cap.

Pushing either 193 or 855 out of a 16 in. barrel at inside-the-apt distances...well, if that's not working for you I don't think your problems are going to be solved with super fancy boolets, you know? I used to chase the latest and greatest ammo technology myself until I realized just how expensive and frustrating that is. Better off prating putting the available and cost effective stuff where it belongs.

I'll give that resource a look. I understand it's the Indian not the arrow.

But, we probably all carry nice pistols, take classes, and go through hoops to carry one. Likelihood says we won't need a gun. But, yet here we all are.

I'd like to improve my odds, but I also thought this would be a good exercise in discussion.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...mance-Thoughts

A thread in this forum said a guy took a 55 gr M193 through a 20" barrel (ETA: at point blank range) through the leg and was walking 4 days later.

I'd like to hear about good more readily available alternatives that fill the need.

Just my .02$.

Thanks for the link Boppa, I'll check it out.

[TGS]

I'll give that resource a look. I understand it's the Indian not the arrow.

But, we probably all carry nice pistols, take classes, and go through hoops to carry one. Likelihood says we won't need a gun. But, yet here we all are.

I'd like to improve my odds, but I also thought this would be a good exercise in discussion.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...mance-Thoughts

A thread in this forum said a guy took a 55 gr M193 through a 20" barrel (ETA: at point blank range) through the leg and was walking 4 days later.

I'd like to hear about good more readily available alternatives that fill the need.

Just my .02$.

Thanks for the link Boppa, I'll check it out.

I would re-read Doc's 5.56 duty load post and take this part to heart:

Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement.

[BWT]

I would re-read Doc's 5.56 duty load post and take this part to heart:

That's very true and thank you for sharing.

I typically shoot .223 Tula ammo or Wolf, (whichever is cheaper at the time) because it's the cheapest and accuracy at the ranges I shoot isn't hampered. I've had reliable experiences with about the 5,000+ rounds, I've shot when cleaning every 500+ rounds, and using generous amounts of lubricant.

ETA: I forgot to say, I don't feel confident that .223 Tula is an acceptable defense round.

I simply wanted to discuss non-barrier blind alternatives. Doc's recommendations on 5.56mm in the stickies are about duty use ammo. He talked about the involvement of carbines and cars.

I thought we may have a good discussion generated for civilians in home defense.

I'm not looking for the wonder round, in fact, I asked for alternatives to what I consider the wonder rounds.

Let me try refining my request.

I'd like a round that'll fragment reliably within 50-75 yards out of a 12.5" SBR. I'd like it to be reliable in an AR that uses feed ramps. I'd like it to be between .50-75$ a shot and be able to find it with decent regularity. I'd ask it not be barrier blind.

Thanks for the input guys.

ETA 2: Checking out the sg ammo. I maybe found some good alternatives that got that range. Thanks.

[overton]

Prvi 75gr.

[Chuck Haggard]

I would make a observation that if one gets torso or head hits with the M193 then almost all of your issues with using that ammo for defensive use are moot. I have seen some very real people with some massive holes in them from close range hits with M193 and other similar 55gr FMJ loads.

M855 doesn't penetrate building materials much better than M193 BTW.

I quick check of one site shows me;

Old school LE load with quite a bit of use in the past, works pretty good on deer as well;
http://www.sgammo.com/product/winche...t-ammo-ra223r2

In those situations where intermediate barrier penetration is not a critical requirement, for example LE urban entries or long range shots in open conditions, then OTM, JHP, and standard JSP loads can offer acceptable performance. For 1/7 twist barrels, the Hornady 75 gr OTM, Nosler 77 gr OTM, and Sierra 77 gr SMK OTM are all good choices. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however while capable of shooting out to 600, it is optimized for 200 and under. If stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), the Federal 64 gr TRU (T223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, are likely to run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. Again it is critical to keep in mind that the above loads fail to offer adequate penetration through intermediate barriers.

Not a true barrier round;
http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornad...jsp-ammo-83285

Pretty decent in testing;
http://www.sgammo.com/product/prvi-p...-partizan-ammo

[rob_s]

A thread in this forum said a guy took a 55 gr M193 through a 20" barrel (ETA: at point blank range) through the leg and was walking 4 days later.

Which begs the question, how would things have been any different with a different projectile, or even a different caliber?

[BWT]

Which begs the question, how would things have been any different with a different projectile, or even a different caliber?

I'm at work so I'll reply to others later. Thanks all for the input.

For the above however, a Hornady VMAX or Urban TAP would've pretty much disintegrated. (ETA: Or rapidly fragmented very shallowly in the wound channel may be a little more accurate.)