Analyzing the Front Sight ND reports

[Artemas]

@ LittleLebowski

If you want to get fussy about it, some were caused by improper setup from the previous string of fire.

[HopetonBrown]

I was lucky to have Louis Awerbuck, Bob Vogel and Larry Vickers as my first 3 handgun instructors. They all have between moderate and a lot of 1911 experience, and none of them recommended pushing up on the safety while reholstering, so I just don't.

You don't keep your thumb in the "engage thumb safety" position to ensure that it's engaged while holstering?

Genuinely curious, as I've heard of it being taught both ways. Never had occasion to figure out which works best for me as I've run a 1911 from a holster for a grand total of maybe 4 hours in my life.

[Robinson]

^^^can y'all say more about this? I was taught to monitor the hammer with my thumb when holstering a 1911-pattern gun. There is a point in holstering where your hand *has* to leave the safety, and it's before the gun is fully seated, yes?

I keep upward pressure on the thumb safety and then transition my thumb away as the safety begins to make contact with the leather. It seems pretty natural.

The problem with riding the hammer on a cocked 1911 is that in the odd chance something does manage to disengage the thumb safety AND something manages to press the trigger AND the grip safety is still engaged, as soon as you take pressure off the hammer the gun is going to fire anyway. It doesn't really hurt to ride the hammer, but I don't think it helps anything either.

To me the big things are -- don't rush the re-holster and keep your finger off the darn trigger.

[DocGKR]

On 1911's and M&P's, I keep my thumb under the safety, ensuring it is fully engaged, until the pistol is all the way in the holster...

[Tamara]

I was lucky to have Louis Awerbuck, Bob Vogel and Larry Vickers as my first 3 handgun instructors. They all have between moderate and a lot of 1911 experience, and none of them recommended pushing up on the safety while reholstering, so I just don't.

Well, Louis never told me not to.

In my own personal experience, the odds of my thumb stopping a skeletonized or "Commander-style" 1911 hammer from dropping hard enough to bust a cap while still gripping the gun in a normal firing grip are in the slim-to-none bracket, which is still a larger number than the odds of the hammer falling while my thumb is making sure the manual safety is positively in the "on" position. By my way of thinking, the latter would take a serious mechanical breakage while the former would just take a slippery thumb on my part.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it the other way, mind you, so I'll get back in my lane now.

[TheTrevor]

On 1911's and M&P's, I keep my thumb under the safety, ensuring it is fully engaged, until the pistol is all the way in the holster...

This has been my practice with TDA guns as well, specifically HKs.

As an additional layer of safety (no pun intended) I also think it's highly desirable to use holsters which ensure that the thumb safety is engaged when the gun is fully holstered. I know of several Kydex benders and have heard tell of leather holster-makers who all offer this feature. I would not recommend or personally buy a carry holster for a thumb-safety-equipped gun which did not have a thumb-safety engagement ramp molded into it.

Especially after looking closely at the Front Sight ND data.

[TheTrevor]

Well, Louis never told me not to.

In my own personal experience, the odds of my thumb stopping a skeletonized or "Commander-style" 1911 hammer from dropping hard enough to bust a cap while still gripping the gun in a normal firing grip are in the slim-to-none bracket, which is still a larger number than the odds of the hammer falling while my thumb is making sure the manual safety is positively in the "on" position. By my way of thinking, the latter would take a serious mechanical breakage while the former would just take a slippery thumb on my part.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing it the other way, mind you, so I'll get back in my lane now.

Emphasis added above to highlight truth.

I'm in the "ride the safety" camp on guns with thumb safeties, as noted, but I'm no SME and would not presume to tell anyone that this is the One True Way. I discourage new shooters from starting with a 1911 for a variety of reasons, even though I quite like the 1911.

Regarding the thumb-on-hammer technique with the 1911... If I had been the shooter in FS incident #2 above, and I had been riding the hammer into the holster, I do believe my reaction would be along the lines of "Sarge, when I picked up this frag grenade the pin fell out and I'm barely holding onto the spoon -- HELP!!!"

While again emphasizing my less-than-SME experience with 1911s, I would prefer to focus my ability to manage the controls during holstering on keeping the thumb safety engaged and, if possible, taking pressure off the grip safety as early as I can.

[feudist]

I have periodically looked at these reports on the Front Sight website for years. Here is my take -- there are enough shootings to find some support for almost any proposition, regarding the relative safety or lack thereof of various pistol types, or the phase of shooting (drawing versus reholstering). The only thing I can conclude, is that the more people shoot, the more people shoot themselves. Regardless of whether an "instructor" is watching. This is really no different than flying, rock climbing, BASE jumping or even driving, where the more people there are doing stuff, the more accidents there will be. People who think they are somehow special, and their procedures somehow make them immune to risk when engaging in potentially hazardous activities, are kidding themselves. Do it enough and something will be more likely to happen at some point, so ideally manage risk so a single mistake is less likely to kill you.

Prezactly.

Hence Cooper's 4 rules.

And not to belabor the obvious, but the guns all functioned perfectly.

When the trigger was pulled, they discharged.

[JAD]

I ride the safety up while reholstering. My good holsters (SME included) lock the safety on when the gun is in, so I'm sort of handing off the safety to the holster. This is a very comfortable and automated process for me, which I believe is partially due to the fact that I safe whenever I come off target; my safety works a lot. Positive engagement and disengagement of the safety is the first thing I feel for on a pistol. I can't ride the hammer on a 1911 with a beaver tail without horribly coonfingering the gun. I don't know who taught me to ride the safety; either Jim Crews, Clint Smith, or I made it up on my own.

[Lomshek]

Corollary: If you carry AIWB, you have basically no margin for error in trigger discipline while drawing. If you can't maintain basically perfect trigger discipline on your draw (index finger hard-indexed along gun, away from trigger until it's aligned with target) IMHO you have no business carrying AIWB. But I think everyone here knew that already, no?

The funny thing is when I've tried to correct "experienced" (read done it for years not done it right for years) shooters on proper hard trigger finger index I get ignored or told the finger was off the trigger (1/4" forward of the trigger face). The only shooters I've had luck convincing are novices who know they don't know anything.

Experienced shooters with bad habits are the most dangerous creatures out there because they know everything and it's worked fine all this time. Those are also the types most likely to decide AIWB is for them because they're "expert" shooters.

ETA - I'm not a paid instructor but I am NRA certified (for whatever that's worth) for volunteer teaching of scouts and friends of friends who are looking for an intro to shooting.