Analyzing the Front Sight ND reports

[Dagga Boy]

Full Sabrina is all the rage again. I was hoping it died with Andy Stanford falling off the map, but it is now back with a vengence because......wait for it...."SEAL's do it". Many of those using full Sabrina have no clue who Sabrina is, so it lost the only redeeming value of at least Sabrina was the hottest Angel.

[BLR]

What/who is a Sabrina? And what are the implications of them being full?

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[Tamara]

What/who is a Sabrina? And what are the implications of them being full?

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The term comes from the pose of "Sabrina" in Charlie's Angels, holding the revolver up by her face, a la Hollywood, so that the camera can get both the mug and the gat in the same frame.

Thus, holding the gun in two hands up by your head is a "Full Sabrina" while holding the gun in one hand up by your head would be a "Half Sabrina".

[GJM]

NOW we are in trouble.........if GJM chimes in with an "I agree with Nyeti", be prepared for the end of the world........

I have a policy of only agreeing with you privately so I am not accused of being a nuthugger.

It seems like the tangent topic is "holstering at one specific point to allow safe & aggressive movement to a significantly distant second location", no?

Let's use the "stage spans two bays/areas" situation as the example. At some point, the shooter is going to be done with area A of the stage and will want to move quickly and safely to area B without breaking the 180. Here's how it could be done:
* Upon firing their last shot, shooter calls "done, ready for movement"
* RO responds OK, make ready
* Shooter makes safe and holsters gun loaded as it was when they called done -- no off-the-clock reloads
* RO calls out time and shows time to scorekeeper
* RO calls out "move to the starting box"
* Shooter, accompanied by RO, moves from wherever they are on the first stage to a 3x3 shooting box
* RO does the usual ready/stand-by/beep routine, shooter takes off with gun holstered to shoot area B of the stage

Trade-offs: adds 20-30 seconds overhead per shooter, times must be added together from areas A & B (modulo-60 addition! eek!)
Benefits: supervised holstering off the clock; no competitive advantage gained or lost from area A stage strategy because everyone starts running to area B from the same spot

This feels like torture not fun, and would likely be wildly unpopular.

Folks that shoot frequently get more than enough practice holstering a loaded pistol. Quick math is 30-40 hot reholster cycles a training session times all the practice sessions a month.

LOL... Haven't seen that one mentioned in a while...

Thanks , I needed the giggle. Lying here in ICU at oh-dark-thirty, cannot sleep because the sinus surgery has thoroughly trounced me, the CPAP mask doesn't fit my new nose shape ( they un-deviated my septum).

For those of you familiar with this rather common procedure and are wonderingly why I'm in the hospital for it, instead of an outpatient clinic... long story.

It hurts to laugh... I laughed anyway. My favorite is the half Sabrina with a twist- step when negotiating corners...

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Hope you feel better.

What/who is a Sabrina? And what are the implications of them being full?

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Bill, you are either trolling us or showing your age. Half Sabrina is the classic Charlie's Angels pose with the pistol up with one hand, and the full Sabrina, being of course the same with two hands. Maybe Tam can model it, and make it her new avatar, since this is Pistol-Forum not AR forum.

(Looks like my post crossed with the one from Tam.)

[Tamara]

But to the point itself, I agree with Nyeti about the whole "muzzle over the shoulder" and whatnot. I've run in some weird contortions to avoid breaking the 180 when it would have been a lot easier to just holster up and boogie.

"Dude, your re-holster could really use some work. You're leaving ten seconds on the table across a match. I can show you how to..."

So, because of stage design, instead of doing one questionably dangerous thing, we'll do another maybe kinda slightly less dangerous thing... If only there were some third alternative...

[Tamara]

Folks that shoot frequently get more than enough practice holstering a loaded pistol. Quick math is 30-40 hot reholster cycles a training session times all the practice sessions a month.

Folks that dry-fire a couple times between bi-monthly matches don't, and yet they're all the Sevigny of the little movies in their heads.

ETA: ...and you know what? Even absent practice sessions, I holster a loaded pistol several times a day. I hope I never get cocky or complacent about it, and I certainly wouldn't want to do it on a clock.

[TCinVA]

I read this report and was also suprised at the number of ND incidents during the draw of the gun. I am left wondering to what extent this is a training/practice issue. Or more to the point, a lack there of...

How much time had these individuals spent practicing drawing and coming on target with their guns? And how much of that practice was with a timer, which might cause them to push it a bit? I grew up hearing, "Smooth is fast". I see it at my agencies training/qualifications when those who don't practice struggle with their Safariland ALS holsters. I hate to think what would happen if you included the SERPA holster into this mix of rushing, grabbing and yanking under some stress. Fortunately with the ALS system all we really see is embarrassed officers who discover the value of practice when their guns don't come out of the holster. Thankfully this is rare. And getting even more so.

When I see people exposed to a timer for the first time I always see at least a few of them getting grabby with the trigger finger when they're trying to draw.

[Tamara]

"Double-pumping" a draw seems to sometimes win a ticket to Loud Noise City, almost as though the arm wanted to abort the draw but the hand was late getting the message and decided to carry on through the string of fire...

There's probably some neuro-motor thing at work there that would be abstractly interesting.

[BLR]

Bill, you are either trolling us or showing your age. Half Sabrina is the classic Charlie's Angels pose with the pistol up with one hand, and the full Sabrina, being of course the same with two hands. Maybe Tam can model it, and make it her new avatar, since this is Pistol-Forum not AR forum.

(Looks like my post crossed with the one from Tam.)

Hmmmm. Good question. Am I familiar with a Gun-Girl centric show?

(The prison episode was my fav)

[KevinB]

One of my takes on why Front Sight has more ND's (at least publicly) is the location -- Vegas Baby... I think lots of folks go to Front Sight as part of their Vegas getaway -- the type of folks who would not normally take courses.
I also think that Front Sight is not exactly a premier training facility in terms of the instructors -- but that is just me.

Unlike Nyeti - I have come back to Sabrina out of understanding of what it offers - training in high/low ready for entries - the high ready is much more flexible for physical altercations and is quicker to the gun, that said - I don't use it a lot with handgun.