Why Friends Don't Let Friends Buy the Mini-14

[Tamara]

We bought some USA 10 and 20 rd mags but only about 1/2 of them would work.

Well, to be perfectly fair, that's pretty good odds you got outta the USA mags.

[TGS]

Ref reliability; I think we have come to expect much more from our guns nowadays. My dad told me in Korea it was common for the M1s and carbines to turn into straight pull bolt actions due to the cold. They also often had to do the field strip and clean in the bottom of the foxhole in the middle of a fight if they got hit with a bunch of dirt and such from a mortar attack and their gun started to choke.

My grandfather with the 2nd ID in 1951 had the same comments about the cold regarding the M1 Carbine. He said they were fine as long as it was warm out. Granted, this may also be related to what lube they used in sub-50* temperatures....a factor that would directly impact any semi-auto's reliability. He didn't make the same remarks about the M1 Garand, however. He noted that you could at least pee on them to get them working until you stopped firing and it froze up again, whereas the Carbine wasn't so amenable to Operation Golden Flow.

He also had remarked that it was very common for troops, NCOs and officers alike, to immediately trade up their M1 Carbine for a Garand when one became available (usually by battlefield pickup, unfortunately). They would keep some around for standing watch at posts when not on the front line, as even he loved them for that compared to his BAR.

I often note that I'm just pretty damn sure a Garand wouldn't be able to make it through something like a Pat Rogers carbine class with 1500+ rounds launched in three days, yet they still hold legendary status for so many people.

Truth. Jim Schatz caused some butthurt on HKPRO when he freely admitted that the legacy HK weapon systems fail miserably in reliability testing and longevity compared to modern weapons systems, even though they were very well regarded in their heyday.

The original USMC nickname for the Garand back in the day was "Jammin' Jenny", a factoid lost on the He-Man AR Hater's Club.

Now THAT I never knew.

[TR675]

Truth. Jim Schatz caused some butthurt on HKPRO when he freely admitted that the legacy HK weapon systems fail miserably in reliability testing and longevity compared to modern weapons systems, even though they were very well regarded in their heyday.

I don't want to derail the thread, but this is really interesting and I can't help myself. Which ones?

[TGS]

I don't want to derail the thread, but this is really interesting and I can't help myself. Which ones?

All of them.

Quantifiably, the roller delayed blowbacks perform much worse in torture testing where thousands of rounds are fired without cleaning.

Qualitatively, they're also a pain to keep going compared to an HK416, 417 or SCAR, as depending the wear and what ammunition you're shooting, different size rollers have to be installed. I think the number he threw out was 86.....when HK reps would travel to diagnose weapons issues, they would carry something like 86 different combinations of internal parts as those weapons had to be matched to the characteristics of the ammunition being fired, and the measured wear of the internals.

ETA: Here you go. This is a portion of a post he made:

There are lots of roller-locked fans on this thread and that is good. However the facts are that the blowback-operated roller-locked bolt system while good in its day (1940-1960's) is no longer state of the science. It was not selected by its designers because it was more reliable. It was selected because of unique production and assembly concerns during German war time conditions. It is in fact more sensitive to ammo variances and one of the only modern rifle systems that requires problematic chamber fluting. As mentioned HK tec reps traveled the world with MANY (80+) different G3 locking pieces to "adjust" weapon function with different ammo found around the globe. In HK qualification tests the G36 with its self-regulating gas system digested 200 different types of foreign, US and German commercial and MIL SPEC ammo successfully without parts changes or adjustments. An HK33 subjected to that same test would require numerous changes to the locking piece to operate as reliably. gas operated rifles like M4's and HK416's will reliably fire special ammo (frangible, blank, subsonic, FX, etc.) that will NEVER work in an HK33, G3 or MP5 without a locking piece or bolt group change or the addition of a special muzzle device as was the case with an HK53 to fire frangible. The roller-locked guns take special blank ammo as they will not function with conventional blank ammo that works in M14's, M16's, etc. Tests of both rifles in Saudi Arabia with HK in attendance revealed the G36 was in fact more reliable than a standard HK33. In fact a special HK33 with Tennifer hardened receiver was developed to "compete" in the desert conditions with the polymer. I have participated in numerous 10,000 round endurance and reliability test with HK53's, M4's, HK416, G36's and XM8's and rarely will a roller-locked HK53 get to 10,000 rounds without breaking at least one locking roller holder, extractor and or extractor springs. I have witnessed many op rod gas operated HK rifle so well past 20,000 rounds with almost no stoppages or parts breakages. Need I go on?

[BobM]

Well, to be perfectly fair, that's pretty good odds you got outta the USA mags.

Yeah I know but it's all that was available other than the factory 5 rd mags

[Tamara]

Yeah I know but it's all that was available other than the factory 5 rd mags

#ThanksBill

[Spr1]

" I often note that I'm just pretty damn sure a Garand wouldn't be able to make it through something like a Pat Rogers carbine class with 1500+ rounds launched in three days, yet they still hold legendary status for so many people."

I think that, for me, the ability of a Garand to go 1500 rds in 3 days is a moot (but accurate) point, as I am completely certain that I would not be in proper working order after 1500 rds of '06 enjoyed through a Steel butt plate.

[Lester Polfus]

All of them.

Quantifiably, the roller delayed blowbacks perform much worse in torture testing where thousands of rounds are fired without cleaning.

Qualitatively, they're also a pain to keep going compared to an HK416, 417 or SCAR, as depending the wear and what ammunition you're shooting, different size rollers have to be installed. I think the number he threw out was 86.....when HK reps would travel to diagnose weapons issues, they would carry something like 86 different combinations of internal parts as those weapons had to be matched to the characteristics of the ammunition being fired, and the measured wear of the internals.

ETA: Here you go. This is a portion of a post he made:

TRUE DAT! I entered law enforcement at the end of our love affair with the semi-auto MP5 as a police car gun (because, Princess Gate) and I was never more happy to see anything go. The .40 cal version of the MP5 was a giant cluster. I think we had to have one set of locking pieces installed for months with an R in them, and one set for the rest of the year, unless it was a Sunday.

Want to have a frustrating day? Try to shoot Blazer aluminum cased ammo through a .40 Cal MP5.

[Symmetry]

My grandfather with the 2nd ID in 1951 had the same comments about the cold regarding the M1 Carbine. He said they were fine as long as it was warm out. Granted, this may also be related to what lube they used in sub-50* temperatures....a factor that would directly impact any semi-auto's reliability. He didn't make the same remarks about the M1 Garand, however. He noted that you could at least pee on them to get them working until you stopped firing and it froze up again, whereas the Carbine wasn't so amenable to Operation Golden Flow.

He also had remarked that it was very common for troops, NCOs and officers alike, to immediately trade up their M1 Carbine for a Garand when one became available (usually by battlefield pickup, unfortunately). They would keep some around for standing watch at posts when not on the front line, as even he loved them for that compared to his BAR.



Truth. Jim Schatz caused some butthurt on HKPRO when he freely admitted that the legacy HK weapon systems fail miserably in reliability testing and longevity compared to modern weapons systems, even though they were very well regarded in their heyday.



Now THAT I never knew.

Cold weather was definitely bad on the carbine. The cartridge's handgun bullet profile is terrible for anything over 100yrds too. I set up a 1/4" plywood silhouette at 300yrds, and the 110gr FMJ bullets barely punched through then and were laying on top of the dirt in the berm.

In regard to the Mini 14........it was the preferred weapon of the original A-team......need I say more?

[LSP972]

TRUE DAT!
Want to have a frustrating day? Try to shoot Blazer aluminum cased ammo through a .40 Cal MP5.

9mm too. We made that mistake… once.

.