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Thread: Why The Emphasis on Center Mass over Headshots?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    It is all situational with distance, time, relative movement, barriers, and background all playing a role.

    IIRC, Nyeti used to train folks at his old agency to go for a head shot at close range--I believe they had a fairly long string of successful OIS incidents ending quickly and decisively in favor of LE when using that tactic...

    Take a look at the FAST test--two shots two a low percentage "head" target about the same size as the eye region and then four shots to a COM type target.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  2. #12
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    It was consistently drilled into my head during my time in the Army, COM COM COM. It all made sense the first time I had to put the training to good use. The fact of the matter is that it is easier and faster to land a hit on the target when you're aiming for the largest cross sectional area.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Slavex's Avatar
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    This

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    The head moves in multiple axis on a moving axis...

    Get a hit first -- you can move to head if tgt remains active - as with good CoM hits the tgt even in plates is generally going to be disrupted a bit.
    ...and to think today you just have fangs

    Rob Engh
    BC, Canada

  4. #14
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    All "center mass" not being equal of course.

    The effect of service caliber JHPs to the torso when placed above the diaphragm/below the collar bone has been MUCH more dramatic in my observation than when hits are lower.

    I have lost count of the number of people I have seen who had been shot in the head who were walking and talking afterwards. The last such person I saw was hit in the back of the head at close range with .40 180gr FMJFP

  5. #15
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    .45 ACP round fired just under the eye socket. Hit the sinus cavity, then turned down...blew out a couple of teeth and settled in the lower jaw.

    The victim (from south of the border) walked into Sherman House's office off of a bus 5 months after the incident wanting to get his teeth fixed.

    Head shots can be very effective at stopping a fight...but hitting the head under gunfight conditions with a handgun is very difficult as any FOF evolution will show you. Most folks toting a handgun haven't trained themselves to the point where they can reliably pull off a head shot, even at close range. Having them hit the bad guy is better than having them send rounds into heaven-knows what else. SOP's for police departments are a big deal because if a cop shoots the wrong person their training is on trial. If they cap some nice little ol' lady and argue they did so because their department taught them to take low percentage shots then the department is going to be writing big checks. Administrators get clammy hands when you even mention the L word...
    Last edited by TCinVA; 04-01-2014 at 07:14 AM.
    3/15/2016

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I have lost count of the number of people I have seen who had been shot in the head who were walking and talking afterwards.
    Jesus...

  7. #17
    Member SteveK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP552 View Post
    The head is the most animated part if the human body. It moves, a lot, and is a relatively small target compared to the center chest. Spending some time on even a simple moving target system will show you how little margin for error there is on a head-size target. Force on force training will show you just how much a living head moves.

    Look at the hit ratios in real fights where the aiming point is center mass, and then think about reducing the chance of a hit even more. There is a reason that center mass is the standard aiming point except for some very specialized applications/needs that don't have anything to do with general self defense.

    Also, the real target on the head is not the entire thing. I'm personally aware of more than one thug that had a pistol bullet skid around on his skull. Most cops will say the same.

    Ken
    This^^^

    When bullets start flying, people get to moving. That usually includes all parties involved. Also, an initial headshot will probably not go over well in the inevitable wrongful death suit as it will be portrayed as an execution. Although it will probably be defensible, do you really need the headache?

  8. #18
    Site Supporter Trukinjp13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    This^^^

    When bullets start flying, people get to moving. That usually includes all parties involved. Also, an initial headshot will probably not go over well in the inevitable wrongful death suit as it will be portrayed as an execution. Although it will probably be defensible, do you really need the headache?
    Ha! Headache! I know Poor taste... But funny

  9. #19
    Site Supporter KevinB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveK View Post
    This^^^

    When bullets start flying, people get to moving. That usually includes all parties involved. Also, an initial headshot will probably not go over well in the inevitable wrongful death suit as it will be portrayed as an execution. Although it will probably be defensible, do you really need the headache?
    Even worse if they where handcuffed and kneeling facing away from you at the time...

    Those ones are really tough to articulate.
    Kevin S. Boland
    Director of R&D
    Law Tactical LLC
    www.lawtactical.com
    kevin@lawtactical.com
    407-451-4544




  10. #20
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    "I have lost count of the number of people I have seen who had been shot in the head who were walking and talking afterwards."
    Used to see this every month in the ED...
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

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