Col. Cooper's/Gunsite's Four Rules...

[Tamara]

This is where I believe much of the problem lies.....many are way too awesome to have to listen to a lecture about safety, or are at the "I already know that" stage (kind of like the safety brief on an airplane). It's like the rest of the shooting world where many want only advanced stuff, and fail to understand that "advanced" is actually execution of the basic fundamentals in more difficult scenarios. That is how I look at the safety rules. They are simple. They are fairly easy to utilize on a single supervised lane at a range. What is "advanced" is to continue to adhere to the "basic" safety rules in very "advanced" situations and scenarios. Many find the the shortcut of simply ignoring them because they are for "simpletons" have simply not grasped what being an advanced level shooter REALLY is (of course, that is strictly MY definition of what an advanced level shooter is).

Nobody in this thread is saying this, nyeti.

[Tamara]

There is no part of the Glock takedown procedure that requires you to point the gun directly at your left palm when you press the trigger.

How can you take the gun down while following the Four Rules?

1) All guns are always loaded. (Handle it with cautious respect, just as you would a loaded gun that you knew for sure would launch a bullet when you press the trigger. Don't get cocky or complacent about the safety rules just because you think you know the gun's status.)

2) Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. (If you aren't willing to destroy your own left paw, don't put it in front of the muzzle. If you aren't willing to leave a hole in your lap, don't point the muzzle at your lap. Watch your muzzle direction even with your thrice-checked "unloaded" gun. If there's nothing in your immediate environment that you would be willing -- not eager but willing -- to put a hole in if you made a mistake, don't handle the gun there.)

3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target. (What's a target? It isn't just a piece of paper at the range. It is a deliberately-chosen "best place" for a bullet to land given the circumstances and environment. Never touch the trigger until you have located that spot and pointed the muzzle at it. Again, if there's nothing in your immediate environment that you would be willing to sacrifice if you made a mistake about the gun's status, you don't have a target and you cannot touch the trigger.)

4) Be sure of your target and what's beyond. (When you pick your aimpoint in #3, make sure it will safely contain the bullet should a round inexplicably be present in the gun when you press the trigger.)

pax

This should be printed out and included with every Glock purchase, as well as being the Start Page at glocktalk.com.

[Dagga Boy]

Nobody in this thread is saying this, nyeti.

Which is why this is one of the very few places I actually look at or post on the internet. I have had this battle at many places in the past and I have really given up on trying to convince the masses. I don't consider this place "the masses".

For those griped about my Glock sentiments, I am not particularly anti-Glock. I carried them extensively, and have over a quarter of a million rounds downrange with them, so its not like I am making this stuff up. "Most" of the ND reports I have seen with Glocks occurred while "cleaning". Much of the crap I here from those who think the safety rules are old and useless is because they can't "Dry Fire or Clean their Glock". Sorry if two and two equaled four for me on this one. Maybe I am wrong, but I am good with where I am. Pax, look at your assertion on the explanation of "rule 3", and look how I explained that if you are going to violate rule three, make sure you are REALLY good on the other three, and see if we are saying the exact same thing. I think we are.

[JHC]

Are you referring to inertia firing or hammer-sear failure?

I was mostly thinking the inertia firing but it was Tamara's discussion last year of hammer sear failure that ruined me for 1911 in AIWB ever again.

[Tamara]

I was mostly thinking the inertia firing but it was Tamara's discussion last year of hammer sear failure that ruined me for 1911 in AIWB ever again.

I'll freely admit it's not entirely based in logic, but it's the exact same reason I wouldn't carry an M&P or XD there, either. Nothing where the ignition system is pre-loaded with all the energy required to make noise.

A DAO J-frame? Sure. Even if every safety part in the gun were to undergo spontaneous existence failure, it's still inert until the trigger is pulled.

[Rick Finsta]

Timely. I just took my hunter's safety class (online course with an in-person test administered by DNR instructors). There are a few automatic failures. If you muzzle someone in the room or place your finger inside the trigger guard or on the trigger of the "test gun" at any time, you fail. If you cannot recite the Four Rules, you fail.

Only one problem.

The Four Rules are basically Cooper's, but they are not. They are the TABK rules:

Treat every firearm as if it is loaded
Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.
Be certain of your target and what's beyond it.
Keep your finger outside the trigger guard until ready to shoot

I, no foolin', almost failed this test because I could not come up with these rules verbatim. The instructor actually stopped me halfway into Cooper's Rule 3 to explain that he was looking for these "TABK" rules verbatim, and it took me about 15 minutes to get the wording close enough for him to accept. This is not a good use of an acronym!

Most hunters are NOT shooters. What, if anything, can be done to standardize rule sets for teaching?

Also, since many of my CCW students come from that background (hunting or sport shotgun shooting) I have them discuss the rules in class, and what might be some specific applications or difficulties with following them when carrying a loaded pistol for self defense, or performing dry practice or cleaning procedures.

[41magfan]

Unless they've amended it, there was a well-known LE Training Association using that TABK stuff .... I was a dues paying member for a year or two before I figured out what that bunch was all about.

This is the sort of thing that inevitably happens when Mommies don't properly affirm their children; they grow up to be adults that are always doing silly things to get attention.

[Wendell]

I'm still not sure that the Glock is flawed...

If the Glock design is "flawed" because it's easier to disassemble then the M&P, why do I (and many of you) disassemble the M&P by pulling the trigger?

Next you'll be saying that it's "flawed" because it doesn't have a magazine disconnect, and a key lock-out (like a Taurus), and a palm reader (like 007's Walther), and an RFI transponder (like Eric Holder wants to require).

The Glock disassembly method is beautiful. It's not a flaw, it's a feature.

[TR675]

If the Glock design is "flawed" because it's easier to disassemble then the M&P, why do I (and many of you) disassemble the M&P by pulling the trigger?

Beats me. High tolerance for unnecessary risk?

The Glock disassembly method is beautiful. It's not a flaw, it's a feature.

You must be in IT.

[UNM1136]

I really didn't want to get into this conversation, because ALWAYS and NEVER really stick in peoples craws, and they focus and dream up scenarios where particular rules don't apply to them. And it tracked that way.

Every time I wanted to jump into the fray DB decided to read my mind and post what I was thinking, days or weeks ahead of me thinking it.

When I went through hunters safety at 12 years old there were new rules for every situation that we encountered. Unload the gun before climbing the fence. Unload the gun when your animal is down. Never transport a loaded gun, etc. Those rules were intended to save class time by not having us focus on exceptions. They were not the Big Boy Rules. They were rules given to creative and reasonably intelligent children, who look for exceptions to everything, a reason to not follow the rules. My nine year old daughter has a brilliant future as a lawyer, even out arguing and finding more loopholes than the 14 year old.

The more you apply the real Big Boy Rules, those API rules, as intended, you will recognize where you goof up and violate one of them. Violating one of them should not be fatal. It takes more than one failure at the same time to cause a fatal problem. That level of awareness and accountability is something I decided to train for before I became a cop. When I or my shooters shoot a no shoot target for any reason, or have an ND, we can trace it back to a simple violation of the basics. And the better caliber your trainer the more you see layered safety protocols. It goes into range design, it goes into manipulations (try to swap mags without engaging a manual safety at a MacNamera carbine course), it goes to diagnostics, and needs to carry over to our day to day mindset.

I even remember TLG mentioning that properly done press outs are done in accordance with the four rules...And changed the way I looked at and explain my draw stroke and press out, forever.

The good Col. also mentioned that there were two types of shottists: those that have NDs and those that lie. I remember when I transitioned from a P229 to a 1911 that I was dumping rounds into the pelvis of those targets as I tried to prep my trigger. Violation of the four rules? yep. NDs? yep. Valuable learning experience? yep. Fatal? nope.

As far as gun type devices....To me they are meant to simulate a real firearm, safely. I have no problems training with them, and all the rules apply. They are not toys to be waived around, they are training tools that allow me to do things that my firearm will not allow me to do, like violate the big four in specific circumstances with the safety of the public, my training partner, and I all safeguarded.

I also have a pistol that I use at home for dry fire practice, and I use the TV as a target constantly. But, in my defense, it is a project gun (DB, trying to decide between the aimpoint and the RMR on my glock with an ATOM mount) that I keep assembled, except when I am working on it, I have an old vest behind the TV, and the pistol is in a caliber that I have not one single round of ammunition in the house! When I bought this gun it was with the intention of building it over several years, and have no .40 S&W, 10mm, or 9x25 Dillon ammo in my home, on my property or in my locker or car at work. When I bought this gun I gave away all my .40 and .357 Sig ammo to my brother for just this reason. The glock has a .40 S&W barrel in it with an ear plug in the chamber, and on my next blade-tech order I will be getting a training barrel for it, since the last time I looked there were no G20 training barrels in stock. Violation of the four rules? Yup. This gun is unloaded, but it is always treated as though it is. I bought the bedroom TV, and if by some miracle a bright flash and loud noise occurs, I deserve to have to buy a new one.

pat