Col. Cooper's/Gunsite's Four Rules...

[j.d.allen]

j.d.,

That version leads directly to this:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eP6UvNgbqIA

Worst of all possible variants of that rule.

pax

Wrong. What lead to that was the fact that he tried to clear the weapon with his finger on the trigger, which directly violates one of the other rules.

[j.d.allen]

The rules are not to be take literally as they lead to impossible situations, such as never cleaning. They are mnemonic devices to point out the serious nature of misuse of weapons.

Given the real functioning of the human mind, slips will happen even to the most careful. The 4 rules author, Jeff Cooper, left rounds in the butt stock of a scout rifle. Then some idiot loaded it and ND'ed, IIRC.

It's a trivial comment to expect an absolute and literal adherence to the 4 rules.

If a ND occurred in that situation it's because someone didn't inspect the weapon before doing whatever they were doing with it. That would be violating the rule as I stated it. I'm sorry but when rules are stated as absolutes I take them absolutely. When someone says ALWAYS I take them at their word.

The way I state the rule does not mean people should start pointing a weapon at someone just because they have inspected it and know it to be unloaded. That would be in violation of the rule against covering anything with the muzzle that one is not willing to destroy.

[j.d.allen]

Context is everything - but regardless if it is clear or not, you treat it with the same diligence you would a loaded gun -- I.E> Don't point it at people your not trying to shoot. Don't assume anything, it makes an ass out of you and me.

Agreed

[KevinB]

This thread makes my head sore.

I wonder how some folks continue to live since there is not a rule that makes them draw breath.

But it also explains the traffic backup today on 29 getting of I66, a work crew had blocked part of the road. The section of road was closed under the overpass (or eventual overpass) in Gainesville - the road had a solid line at a point where it was blocked - and many folks just sat there, not moving for fear of crossing a solid line and breaking a rule...

[cclaxton]

This thread makes my head sore.

I wonder how some folks continue to live since there is not a rule that makes them draw breath.

But it also explains the traffic backup today on 29 getting of I66, a work crew had blocked part of the road. The section of road was closed under the overpass (or eventual overpass) in Gainesville - the road had a solid line at a point where it was blocked - and many folks just sat there, not moving for fear of crossing a solid line and breaking a rule...

Most of them were probably on their cell phones.
Cody

[pax]

jd,

As you watch that video, you see him open the action, glance at the gun, and announce that it's an "empty weapon" after he checks it. Then he takes the gun over to someone off-camera and asks that person to verify that it's an "empty weapon, right?"

Because his personal version of the safety rules included a quiet little belief that checking the gun means it's empty and therefore harmless, he then proceeded to violate all the other rules. He violated those rules because someone, somewhere along the way, told him that it was okay to treat the gun casually (like one might treat an inert gun-shaped object) once he had personally verified that it was empty.

Proximate cause of the injury was that he violated all four of the rules in a systematic fashion. No argument there! But the ultimate cause behind all that was his private belief that checking the gun's status and finding it empty meant that the gun no longer needed to be treated with the cautious respect one would give a potentially deadly device.

pax

[Mr_White]

jd,

As you watch that video, you see him open the action, glance at the gun, and announce that it's an "empty weapon" after he checks it. Then he takes the gun over to someone off-camera and asks that person to verify that it's an "empty weapon, right?"

Because his personal version of the safety rules included a quiet little belief that checking the gun means it's empty and therefore harmless, he then proceeded to violate all the other rules. He violated those rules because someone, somewhere along the way, told him that it was okay to treat the gun casually (like one might treat an inert gun-shaped object) once he had personally verified that it was empty.

Proximate cause of the injury was that he violated all four of the rules in a systematic fashion. No argument there! But the ultimate cause behind all that was his private belief that checking the gun's status and finding it empty meant that the gun no longer needed to be treated with the cautious respect one would give a potentially deadly device.

pax

I completely agree with pax on this. Well-stated. Once all the safety rests on the gun factually being unloaded, and is subsequently treated as if it is not able to fire - because it's unloaded and thus it doesn't matter what is done with it because it's not capable of firing anyway, which is the implicit statement attached to Agent Paige's declaration of 'This is an unloaded gun. Empty weapon, right? Empty weapon.' - there is going to be a really big problem as soon as a mistake is made on the point of the gun being unloaded. That's a single layer of safety instead of multiple layers.

[Tamara]

Wrong. What lead to that was the fact that he tried to clear the weapon with his finger on the trigger, which directly violates one of the other rules.

wat?

[j.d.allen]

wat?

That's what it looked like happened to me. Perhaps I am mistaken, but just before the weapon discharged he moved his support hand to on top of the slide. It looked to me like he was trying to clear the weapon. If he had previously cleared the weapon, including opening the action as someone else suggested, how was there a round in the chamber? As far as I know, on a semi-automatic pistol when you open the action by pulling the slide to the rear (which is how one would check for a round in the chamber or in the magazine) any round that is in the chamber would be ejected at that point. Maybe I need to watch the video again...

If he checked the weapon and had someone else check it as well and then that happened there is a level of stupid going on there that no rule will fix. Either way he should not have had his finger on the trigger...

[j.d.allen]

I just watched the video again. He never inspected that weapon before handing it to the other person. In the video it can't be seen what the other person did with it.