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Thread: Learning DA/SA

  1. #1

    Learning DA/SA

    Talking about whether DA/SA is making a comeback in the hardware thread got me thinking about a comparison I made with some shooting friends a while ago. It got some people really mad, and emasculated some.

    If you shoot DA/SA and are totally baller then don't take offense. Or do. Whatever.

    If you don't shoot DA/SA and think it is a relic of the cold war or something like that, then I want to know what you think about cars with a manual transmission and people who cannot drive them.

    When I hear people going on about how its so much easier to learn only one trigger pull instead of two, I hear people saying that its so inconvenient to drive a manual in the city. When I hear about how all the winners of the shooting games shoot striker fired guns, single action guns, laser pistols, or whatever, I hear people going on about how much faster the PDK shifts than a manual. Most of them sound like excuses to justify why they got their Camero SS/911/M3 in automatic because they did not know how to drive a manual. Troll hat on: those people are kittens. I mean not everyone needs to shoot a DA/SA or drive a manual, but when you want to drive a kitten sports car instead of a practical station wagon and have people see you as a skilled driver, you at least need to know how to drive a manual.

    Would the people here say the same thing about DA/SA? I think there are alot more skilled shooters on this forum than most so this does not apply to everyone. And at a certain point a friend pointed out handicapping yourself just to do it is stupid. After all I don't shoot a musket just because it would require more skill to keep up with a modern pistol. But, if not shooting DA/SA because "its hard to learn" is an excuse that many shooter tolerate, how tolerant are they of younger people who can't and won't do things like drive a manual today?

    Anyways maybe I'm just trolling. This was alot more fun on arf in a PPQ thread as there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Last edited by ToddG; 03-18-2014 at 10:05 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by LeonardRockstein View Post
    Talking about whether DA/SA is making a comeback in the hardware thread got me thinking about a comparison I made with some shooting friends a while ago. It got some people really mad, and emasculated some.

    If you shoot DA/SA and are totally baller then don't take offense. Or do. Whatever.

    If you don't shoot DA/SA and think it is a relic of the cold war or something like that, then I want to know what you think about cars with a manual transmission and people who cannot drive them.

    When I hear people going on about how its so much easier to learn only one trigger pull instead of two, I hear people saying that its so inconvenient to drive a manual in the city. When I hear about how all the winners of the shooting games shoot striker fired guns, single action guns, laser pistols, or whatever, I hear people going on about how much faster the PDK shifts than a manual. Most of them sound like excuses to justify why they got their Camero SS/911/M3 in automatic because they did not know how to drive a manual. Troll hat on: those people are pussies. I mean not everyone needs to shoot a DA/SA or drive a manual, but when you want to drive a badass sports car instead of a practical station wagon and have people see you as a skilled driver, you at least need to know how to drive a manual.

    Would the people here say the same thing about DA/SA? I think there are alot more skilled shooters on this forum than most so this does not apply to everyone. And at a certain point a friend pointed out handicapping yourself just to do it is stupid. After all I don't shoot a musket just because it would require more skill to keep up with a modern pistol. But, if not shooting DA/SA because "its hard to learn" is an excuse that many shooter tolerate, how tolerant are they of younger people who can't and won't do things like drive a manual today?

    Anyways maybe I'm just trolling. This was alot more fun on arf in a PPQ thread as there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    IMO-and this is just one DA/SA shooters opinion- it's all about shooter needs. The gun used should reflect the users needs and requirements, and given the different reasons why millions of gun owners buy and use pistols, no two peoples requirements will be the same.

    Such is why we get so many vitriolic posts about Gun A vs Gun B. One shooter may be married with a wife , kids, and insufficient time to hit the range or frequently dry fire. Those aren't excuses, those are real life responsibilities he has to uphold. A striker fired gun he doesn't need to spend much time learning makes sense, for his needs.

    Another shooter might have the disposable income and time to compete and spend hours at the range, while also needing a pistol they can use defensively as a CCW piece. In which case, the time requirement to learn a DA/SA pistol doesn't pose a training problem . One shooter isn't "wrong" and the other "right".

    A third shooter might live in a no-Carry jurisdiction like New Jersey or LA , so her self defense needs are met with a long arm at home or a pocketknife on the street. A handgun with a "duty" trigger and carry-friendly sizing becomes superflous, so a 3lb scoped handgun with a 1lb trigger and competition oriented mods makes sense for this shooters pistol needs.Again, shes not "wrong" for going this path.

  3. #3
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Car stuff: When I was at Porsche Racing School, the instructors -- all professional race car drivers -- unanimously agreed that they got their best lap times with the PDK over manual. Many of them said it almost with a sense of guilt but there's no denying that top end modern transmissions can shift faster than a human and do so with such accurate predictive capability that it seems like witchcraft.

    Speaking at least for myself, benefits of the DA/SA aren't all about performance. In that sense, it's almost more like automatic than manual. There are safeties and conveniences that make a DA/SA a better choice for me even though I could run a gun that just had an equivalent SA trigger pull and a manual safety (1911) or no safety (Glock). And there are people who choose those options. As long as they've thought through the compromises involved, that is their decision.

    I do think your analogy has merit, though. People who don't learn to drive stick properly never really understand what they can do behind the wheel of a manual. If you go to a driving instructor who himself has never really learned how to drive a manual properly and well, don't be surprised if he tells you that manual is too difficult and other such nonsense. Learning a manual might have a steeper curve and it might not be worth it for some folks, but it's far from difficult and can have some benefits for some folks under some circumstances. The only people who can really assess and address those "some" issues are people who really understand both systems.

  4. #4
    Don't tell everyone, but a good DA/SA trigger is easy to shoot well. Far easier than any striker trigger I have shot.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    That's the thing - manual transmission are actually more difficult to drive than automatics - DA/SA is just different than striker

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffJ View Post
    That's the thing - manual transmission are actually more difficult to drive than automatics - DA/SA is just different than striker
    Quoted for truth.

  7. #7
    Member
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    May 2011
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    Pittsburg, KS
    Quote Originally Posted by LeonardRockstein View Post
    When I hear people going on about how its so much easier to learn only one trigger pull instead of two, I hear people saying that its so inconvenient to drive a manual in the city. They're right!

    When I hear about how all the winners of the shooting games shoot striker fired guns, single action guns, laser pistols, or whatever, I hear people going on about how much faster the PDK shifts than a manual.
    They're right too! (although a DA/SA trigger can be mastered as some national champions can attest)
    Actual fact - A long hard trigger pull is harder to master than a short easy one.

    As Todd points out the advantage (for some) of a DA/SA or DAO is not performance. A DA trigger will take more practice to master and reliably hit low percentage targets than a nice 1911 or striker fired trigger. Some folks are willing to work through the training for the benefits they perceive in a DA trigger.

  8. #8
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Lomshek View Post
    As Todd points out the advantage (for some) of a DA/SA or DAO is not performance. A DA trigger will take more practice to master and reliably hit low percentage targets than a nice 1911 or striker fired trigger. Some folks are willing to work through the training for the benefits they perceive in a DA trigger.
    I don't think that is universally true or false. There are plenty of folks, for example, who do their best bullseye work with a DA revolver (or DA trigger on a DA/SA gun). I never quite got accustomed to the 1911 trigger even though everyone continues to insist it's the greatest thing since sex. I find the LEM trigger to be amazing and others here struggled with it to the point of near-hatred. Etc.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    I don't think that is universally true or false. There are plenty of folks, for example, who do their best bullseye work with a DA revolver (or DA trigger on a DA/SA gun).
    Now I'm curious. Would folks using DA for bullseye shooting tend to be trigger stagers or are they so skilled as to be able to smoothly stroke through the trigger?

    I'm pretty decent with DA but can hit a lot better with SA if doing head shots at 25+ or full size silhouettes at 100 meters.

  10. #10
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Lomshek View Post
    Now I'm curious. Would folks using DA for bullseye shooting tend to be trigger stagers or are they so skilled as to be able to smoothly stroke through the trigger?
    For a time, staging a DA revolver trigger was considered the ultimate accuracy technique. But at some point, even if you stage it, unlike the SA shot it still rolls more than "glass rod breaks," which -- at least for me -- means far less chance of anticipation.

    Personally I try not to stage the trigger, but that does't mean it won't sometimes look otherwise. I think of trigger pull in terms of weight, not distance. So as I'm consistently adding weight the trigger might reach a point where it's not moving perceptibly. My finger is always in motion adding weight but I don't try to make sure the trigger pulls through x-distance per y-microseconds consistently from start to finish.

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