Are we training right?

[SouthNarc]

For plainclothes/offduty or CCW applications, I would go for the holster a lot more, more out of Blue on Blue concerns...

I can't overemphasize this point enough and this is WAY more relevant probably to most on this board. Most police officers are trained in the action v. reaction theorem that equates gun in hand to gun in use. We taught that in our acdemy for many years and without any contextual issues it holds true. Don't wanna' get shot by the police? Don't have a gun in hand.

Another story: I'm buying cookies from "Man-Man" who we're gonna' rip on the fourth buy. Deal goes down in a hotel room and the plan is for the team to page me (showing my age) and my job is to open the door thus allowing the team entry.

Page fails and the team falls back to a breach which doesn't go clean. Man-Man draws a gat, I jump him and start whipping his ass and get the pistol right as the door swings open.

First guys in are two uniforms augmenting the narcs, who don't know me and I can see both initiating a shot. I throw the gun over my head and behind me and scream "I'M THE F*CKIN' U/C!!!!!!!!" as I throw myself behind one of the twin beds. Fortunately no one shot me.

That's not the only story I have like that. Point being, gun not in hand is better for you when dealing with the po-po.

[Totem Polar]

^^^epic description. Time to start on those memoirs, Bro.

[Chuck Haggard]

I teach the troops to either reholster (say if they are going to go running and jumping fences after a guy) or to tuck the pistol up into a high 2 like a weapon retention shot and use the other arm to pump as normal when you are running. Pinning the pistol into the 2 seems to keep them from pumping with both arms, which is a good thing IMHO if you are holding a gun.

Running with long guns I tend to go to a port position, or do the Pat McNamara football type tuck and run.



Blue-on-blue stuff; I STRONGLY agree with the idea of getting back to the holster, or at least going to Sul if you can't holster for whatever reason. I mention that during my active-shooter classes as a way to not get shot by the po-leece.

[Dagga Boy]

[QUOTE=SouthNarc;207994]So....basically you're saying you can't run because you're fat?/QUOTE]

Don't FUT with me....... That is a reserve of stored energy. I can weeks without eating. You are probably like Hilton and need a protein bar every hour or you get lightheaded....

I have the flattest feet my podiatrist has ever seen and chronic bronchitis....I couldn't run when I wasn't fat

[TR675]

This whole thread reads like an ad for manual safeties.

[BaiHu]

This whole thread reads like an ad for manual safeties.

With a side order of TDA?

[John Hearne]

Your "bystander slalom" is essentially the Snake Drill, except instead of using targets as bystanders you use live people. (I would not recommend running the actual Snake Drill without a very qualified instructor and very switched on participants... in other words, you really probably shouldn't do it)

Sorry if this is a bunny trail but....

While controversial, I think that there is a lot of value to well-conducted downrange drills. The mind has a very hard time going somewhere it has never been before. An example of this would be making a shot when the bad guy has friendlies in close proximity. I've run the Snake Drill with my people, using Sims, and even with Sims it really freaked a lot of folks out. The freak out tells me that there is something important in there.

As another data point, the Pro Arms Podcast has an interview with a jewelry store owner who was involved in a shooting. Apparently, he had been through a Hackathorn class and very clearly states that he found the exposure to muzzle blast in the drill useful in his fight. The comments are around 42:20 at: http://proarmspodcast.com/084-the-bo...mpted-robbery/

[Jay Cunningham]

Sorry if this is a bunny trail but....

While controversial, I think that there is a lot of value to well-conducted downrange drills. The mind has a very hard time going somewhere it has never been before. An example of this would be making a shot when the bad guy has friendlies in close proximity. I've run the Snake Drill with my people, using Sims, and even with Sims it really freaked a lot of folks out. The freak out tells me that there is something important in there.

As another data point, the Pro Arms Podcast has an interview with a jewelry store owner who was involved in a shooting. Apparently, he had been through a Hackathorn class and very clearly states that he found the exposure to muzzle blast in the drill useful in his fight. The comments are around 42:20 at: http://proarmspodcast.com/084-the-bo...mpted-robbery/

I concur.

[Chuck Haggard]

I do the snake drill with our troops. We start with dummy guns with those cheap lasers taped to the gun to show "laser rule" in action, and advance from there.

[ToddG]

I didn't say there was no value to the Snake Drill. I've participated in it multiple times as a student and used it multiple times as an instructor.

There is a huge difference between doing it with Sims or dummy guns or blank firing guns with people who've been vetted and had multiple days/weeks of prior firearms training and experience vs. what I see normally: relatively inexperienced instructors who think it makes them look cool to have relatively inexperienced students shoot past each other's heads with live guns after 6-12 hours of getting to know them on the range.

I absolutely guarantee this part of the thread will inspire someone to go run this drill having never actually seen it performed live, having no idea of what safety precautions to take, because it sounds cool.