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Thread: Who has a defense attorney already picked out?

  1. #51
    Ok. It's my thread so I will contribute to the drift...

    I think regarding Ayoob, we have to look at him in context.

    Let's set the way back machine to the late 70's and early 80's. I was but a wee lad, staying up late at night to read copies of American Handgunner under the covers with a flashlight. There were very, very few avenues for your ordinary average citizen to receive professional level handgun training, geared towards using a handgun in defense of their lives. You could go to an NRA course and learn which end the bullets came out of, and that's it. Your primary source of information about guns, and how to use them, was gun magazines.

    Entire Mas, who, was an honest-to-God Police Occifer, who advocated for Joe or Suzy Homemaker to receive training on how to defend themselves with a gun and even (gasp!) carry one CONCEALED out on the street. He started some good dialogues on what that really means, including dealing with the legal aftermath. Much of the defensive info in gun magazines back then was absolute crap, and he raised the bar on that.

    I very much appreciate that about Ayoob. He presented questions about the realities of using and carrying a gun, I would have never thought of, and even though ultimately I may have come to different answers than him, that is still valuable.

    I think the biggest issue I have with Ayoob is this: he made a substantial part of his living as a gunwriter. The only way to do that is to fill column inches, and lots of them. So he was prolific, but often you could tell he was working hard to fill those column inches. I lost track of the number of guns he advocated for as the ultimate carry gun etc. Sometimes things got a little wonky. One of the biggest examples of this I can remember is an article where he expounded about how while Colt revolvers were great, they could cause an issue in court because they were named after snakes (Python, King Cobra, Diamondback, etc) and that sounds "scary," whilst the numerical models of Smith And Wesson were much more innocuous...

    Let's fast forward to today. There are few areas of the United States where you can't drive a couple of hours and receive professional level use of force training. Cops and former cops routinely teach Joe and Suzy Homemaker how to shoot. For that matter, we've got former CAG guys hosting classes that are open to the public. There's alot of crap out there in internet land, but if you are judicious, you can also find yourself soaking up information from people like Craig Douglas and Darryl Bolke.

    Honestly, if Ayoob was just getting his start today, he wouldn't be that big of a deal. But I guess I look at him sort of like Freud, maybe we don't cling to many of his conclusions today, but he got the ball rolling.

  2. #52
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, have you taken a class from Mas?
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  3. #53
    Nope. But honestly, I would sure think about it if he came to town. I think there are some things I could learn from him, and I respect the fact that he taught mere civilians when nobody else could, and I'm sure there are people who are alive today because of that.

    The problem is, there are a bunch of trainers out there that don't have the same level of divisiveness attached to their name. So if I'm gonna get time away from the family to train, do I do it with the guy who has a mixed reputation, or with the guy that makes everybody nod their head when you mention his name.

  4. #54
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    Who has a defense attorney already picked out?

    What Mr Ayoob brings to the table - as I see it - is years of real thinking about legal and practical issues related to self defense, and years of teaching those issues to laypeople and even attorneys. You do not have to agree with everything he says - and I do not - to get real, immediate and obvious value from his classes or lectures - which I have.

    Mr Ayoob suffers a bit from a syndrome common among people writing about legal problems, namely, overly-enthusiastic identification of perceived risks and trying to avoid them. This would be the previously mentioned "use a Smith and not a Colt revolver because of the snake names" comment. The need to fill column issues feeds this, but I fall prey to the exact same problem fairly routinely so I won't cast stones.

    As far as I know nobody else in the training field presents the same level, depth and quality of information on selected topics that Mr Ayoob does. Offhand, I don't know of any trainers of note who wouldn't agree that Ayoob has a lot of valuable information to teach, a lot of which is not really available anywhere else. I've read Dodson's critique of Ayoob...I am not impressed.

    If I had a choice, today, between another shooty class and an Ayoob lecture, I would spring for the lecture.

  5. #55
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    Who has a defense attorney already picked out?

    Doubletap.

  6. #56
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    Nope. But honestly, I would sure think about it if he came to town. I think there are some things I could learn from him, and I respect the fact that he taught mere civilians when nobody else could, and I'm sure there are people who are alive today because of that.

    The problem is, there are a bunch of trainers out there that don't have the same level of divisiveness attached to their name. So if I'm gonna get time away from the family to train, do I do it with the guy who has a mixed reputation, or with the guy that makes everybody nod their head when you mention his name.
    I have to say that it's been my observation that most of the divisiveness surrounding Ayoob generally involves things the internet is sure he said, but didn't. I wouldn't take a class from Straw Mas, either.
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

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  7. #57
    That's a fair point, right there. I think I came out sounding a little harsh on the guy. I do respect him, and I know that when I got back and read things I wrote a long time ago, it doesn't generally reflect how I feel now. I'm certainly glad my views on defensive firearms in 1985 or so aren't archived for everyone to read...

    He has said some things* I found to be pretty goofy, but he's certainly said quite a bit more that has moved things forward.

    *That he really did, fer shure say...

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