Bill Drill times ?

[ToddG]

Todd - I didn't think I implied anything about standards.

The OP asked what an "expert time" was for the drill. Folks answered. I'm not seeing the issue.

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My only point was, and is: split times will necessarily increase for higher recoil. I don't see how there can be any argument over that. Will it not be more difficult, all else equal, to track a sight that rises an extra 10 degrees? Or rolls back an extra 0.5 inches during recoil? Isn't that the whole point behind lightened slides?

Assuming facts. Does the slide rise 10 degrees more or 1 degree more? Regardless of how far it travels is the time to recovery still essentially the same for a skilled shooter? There's a reason why a fast moving slide, even though it may flip more, is preferable to a slow moving slide.

[Mr_White]

I am waaaaay out in space on this, but, I wasn't aware a Bill Drill even incorporated drawing. The way I understood it, the purpose was to learn to learn sight tracking. Heck, a target wasn't even used as it distracted from concentrating on the sight picture. The entirety of the drill was sight picture during and coming back from recoil. That was the first time I was conscious of blinking at the shot.

That's a perfectly worthwhile thing you are describing but it is not a Bill Drill. A Bill Drill is to draw and fire six A-zone hits as fast as you can make those As. It definitely does help with sight tracking, and more. I think 7 yards is the generally accepted distance, though taking it to further distances is also very useful and challenging.

Todd - I didn't think I implied anything about standards. My only point was, and is: split times will necessarily increase for higher recoil. I don't see how there can be any argument over that. Will it not be more difficult, all else equal, to track a sight that rises an extra 10 degrees? Or rolls back an extra 0.5 inches during recoil? Isn't that the whole point behind lightened slides? And the Sight Tracker?

I have no expertise in this, but the physics seem simple enough.

I'm not great at controlling recoil, so I think more recoil may take me a bit longer to recover from, and that's certainly logical and the intuitive thing to think. But I'm with Todd on this, I think it takes more effort, more than it takes more time, to recover from stronger recoil (up to a point.) It may actually take more time, but it's a very small increase, like a couple of hundredths per split.

[BLR]

Gabe/Todd - ok. No argument.

Was this named after Bill Jordan or Bill Wilson?

[Mr_White]

I have always heard it was named after Bill Wilson.

[DocGKR]

How do you define a Bill Drill?

Around here it is a D6 Bill Drill from 7 yards, drawing from concealment and getting all A-Zone hits--under 3 sec is the minimum standard, under 2.5 sec is good, under 2 sec would be world class. Best I've done recently is around 2.4 sec using those parameters--irrespective of service pistol or caliber.

Opening it up to something like C-zone steel makes it a bit easier to go faster...

[Mr_White]

How do you define a Bill Drill?

Around here it is a D6 Bill Drill from 7 yards, drawing from concealment and getting all A-Zone hits--under 3 sec is the minimum standard, under 2.5 sec is good, under 2 sec would be world class. Best I've done recently is around 2.4 sec using those parameters--irrespective of service pistol or caliber.

Opening it up to something like C-zone steel makes it a bit easier to go faster...

What do you mean by D6?

The way I do it is: 7 yards, concealed, hands at sides start.

I've seen people write that they do it at 10 yards, or with a surrender start, but typically not from concealment.

[GJM]

All you want to know, and more (14 pages):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...wtopic=964&hl=

Concealed adds a wrinkle that may confuse the comparison of times, as appendix concealed is nearly as fast as OWB open for skilled shooters, and appendix concealed is faster than OWB concealed for most everyone.

[DocGKR]

D1 = Draw and fire 1 shot
D6 = Draw and fire 6 shots
D1R2 = Draw and fire 1 shot, reload and fire 2 additional shots
D3R3R3 = Draw and fire 3 shots, reload and fire 3 additional shots, reload again and fire 3 final shots

[jetfire]

All you want to know, and more (14 pages):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...wtopic=964&hl=

Concealed adds a wrinkle that may confuse the comparison of times, as appendix concealed is nearly as fast as OWB open for skilled shooters, and appendix concealed is faster than OWB concealed for most everyone.

Generally speaking, IDPA style concealment will add about 0.20 to my draw when compared to unconcealed OWB from a non race holster.

[Leroy]

Original Bill Drill was surrender start, uspsa target at 7 yards, draw and 6 shots, all shots must be A's.
I always felt that the emphasis was a good grip on the draw, with a good grip and fast draw the sights just track and it is just about pulling the trigger after that. Mess up the grip on the draw and it just doesn't go well.
Another good drill that would help with improving the Bill Drill is the Garcia dot drill. Target is 2" circle, 7 yards, hands at sides start, 5 sec. par time, draw and and fire 6 shots into the 2" circle (shots must be completely inside the circle perf hits don't count), repeat 5 times for a total of 6 strings. Goal is 36 consecutive shots in a 2" circle beating the par time. This drill is crazy hard, but also really emphasizes a perfect draw, sight tracking, plus trigger control.
Many shooters have really learned calling their shots on 25 yard Bill Drills.