Rifle Plates-Active Shooter Kit, III, or III+?

Hey guys,

I'm going to try and make this short and sweet. I keep a plate carrier in my car for off duty active shooter/critical incident response. I was running Shot Stop Duritium plates. I won't go into detail there but I need to replace those plates.

What are the hives thoughts on III versus III+ for green tip protection?

I was originally inclined to want III protection as I wanted to be lighter on my feet. The Duritium plates were REALLY light weight which I really liked.

I need Shooter cut, multi curve, 10X12.

I'd love suggestions regarding the above question and in general, plate options as I am pretty far removed from what's out there.

While I don't have a hard budget, I'd prefer to keep the set around 1000-1500 bucks.

Thanks guys. Stay safe.

Looking through OP Tactical’s options, Level III won’t be rated for 855. III+ gets you there with a set of in stock Hescos at 3.9 pounds for shooters cut in 10x12 but the thickness is just under an inch (0.98”) which is way too thick for me. I like my plates to be about 0.6” max.

Your budget would also allow you to step up to special threat which is the newest hotness IMO. Hesco’s M210s would be slightly heavier but thinner and also provides 855A1 protection, though they’re out of stock right now. If you want to max that budget out, you can get the U210 at 0.56” and 3.9 pounds with up to 855A1 protection.

I’m kinda of preferential to Velocity but Hesco is checking most/all of your boxes with those whereas VS doesn’t have nearly as many options.

Just a heads up but Shot stops website seems to be vaporware with a little online chatter of legal issues, no idea whether its true or not. Get a hold of Venture tactical as they are/were one of their biggest distributors...

Here is Hesco's Threat Matrix Table

Lvl III plates won't be rated/tested against M855, let alone 855A1 (is that a concern ? Not sure).

For the paramenters you describe (and unless you want to lug around 2x8lbs, or spend 3x the money) +1 on Wake's recommendation for 200-series plates (M210, or ideally U210).

If .308 threats are a concern, then you are back to square one. III+ is then they way to go, but these plates (Hesco's, at least) are thickkk.

Also have a look at Tencate, though Im not sure if they offer an exact equivalent to Hesco's U210.

Check out the information as well as in-stock items here. They are a trusted vendor and can provide some guidance for your purchase.

https://store.atarmor.com/default.asp

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Hey guys,

I'm going to try and make this short and sweet. I keep a plate carrier in my car for off duty active shooter/critical incident response. I was running Shot Stop Duritium plates. I won't go into detail there but I need to replace those plates.

What are the hives thoughts on III versus III+ for green tip protection?

I was originally inclined to want III protection as I wanted to be lighter on my feet. The Duritium plates were REALLY light weight which I really liked.

I need Shooter cut, multi curve, 10X12.

I'd love suggestions regarding the above question and in general, plate options as I am pretty far removed from what's out there.

While I don't have a hard budget, I'd prefer to keep the set around 1000-1500 bucks.

Thanks guys. Stay safe.

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Just an FYI, I know 3 teams that tested their ShotStop plates after that story broke (ours included). They stopped everything they were supposed to. I’ve still got a set in my PC. But I see why people want to replace them. We did. Was expensive as heck.

What kind of Duritium plates did you have? That way we can better understand what your baseline expectation on weight and width is. Do you prioritize one over the other? I know there are some folks, myself included, that would be willing to have a heavier but thinner plate, as while the weight does inhibit mobility a bit, a thicker plate inhibits it even more, and also makes shouldering a long gun more difficult.

As an active shooter plate, does this mean that you'll always have soft armor underneath? If so, what rating is it? You can easily lose some weight and possibly width by going with an ICW plate rather than a standalone, if the expectation is to always have the soft armor on anyway.

Do you require NIJ certification, or can special threat plates be used?

The Hesco M210 strikes a good balance between weight, thickness, threat defeat, cost, multicurve, and can be had in swimmer/shooter cut, but it is a special threat plate, and thus does not provide any defeat against .308 Win or other larger caliber rounds, and is standalone, so potentially heavier and thicker than needed if you'll always have soft armor on. The Z210 could also be an excellent choice, if you don't care about threat defeat against .308 Win, M855A1, or 7.62×39mm API, as it is lighter than even the U210/U211, although a bit thicker; unfortunately, it is very new, so I don't know the pricing, and availability seems very limited.

U210/U211 would be the Gucci move, and it allegedly can even avoid penetration by M80, but it fails level III due to BFD that is just slightly over the limit. The TenCate 6450 (AKA Integris CR6450, they seemed to have had a rebranding), while also not rated to be NIJ level III, allegedly can defeat M80 okay; @TGS stated that his agency had tested the AT Armor STOP-BZ(IP), which I believe to be just the TenCate 6450 (and the same plate as the Velocity Systems API-BZ), though the TenCate plates are harder to find in shooter's cut, though they do exist in the catalog. You could reasonably expect to get away with consistently defeating M80 with those plates if you're always wearing soft armor, though that's obviously totally not something to be relied upon.

As of the end of November last year, a new body armor testing and certification standard was finally published, but it hasn't officially taken effect yet (if you want, I wrote an article on it, message me and I'll send you the link).

The new standard formally addresses the issues with stopping M193 and M855 because of their different characteristics. While there was the informal, unofficial III+ standard, now RF2 specifically addresses both M193 and M855.

Where I worked, I saw everything we seized, and M855 was not an issue there, so a lighter ICW plate was viable. Where I'm at now, M855 is very common. I've got a pair of Hesco L210s - which is no longer available.

Two armor businesses I'm comfortable recommending are:
https://sierratac.com/
https://store.atarmor.com/default.asp

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Originally Posted by Default.mp3

What kind of Duritium plates did you have? That way we can better understand what your baseline expectation on weight and width is. Do you prioritize one over the other? I know there are some folks, myself included, that would be willing to have a heavier but thinner plate, as while the weight does inhibit mobility a bit, a thicker plate inhibits it even more, and also makes shouldering a long gun more difficult.

As an active shooter plate, does this mean that you'll always have soft armor underneath? If so, what rating is it? You can easily lose some weight and possibly width by going with an ICW plate rather than a standalone, if the expectation is to always have the soft armor on anyway.

Do you require NIJ certification, or can special threat plates be used?

The Hesco M210 strikes a good balance between weight, thickness, threat defeat, cost, multicurve, and can be had in swimmer/shooter cut, but it is a special threat plate, and thus does not provide any defeat against .308 Win or other larger caliber rounds, and is standalone, so potentially heavier and thicker than needed if you'll always have soft armor on. The Z210 could also be an excellent choice, if you don't care about threat defeat against .308 Win, M855A1, or 7.62×39mm API, as it is lighter than even the U210/U211, although a bit thicker; unfortunately, it is very new, so I don't know the pricing, and availability seems very limited.

U210/U211 would be the Gucci move, and it allegedly can even avoid penetration by M80, but it fails level III due to BFD that is just slightly over the limit. The TenCate 6450 (AKA Integris CR6450, they seemed to have had a rebranding), while also not rated to be NIJ level III, allegedly can defeat M80 okay; @TGS stated that his agency had tested the AT Armor STOP-BZ(IP), which I believe to be just the TenCate 6450 (and the same plate as the Velocity Systems API-BZ), though the TenCate plates are harder to find in shooter's cut, though they do exist in the catalog. You could reasonably expect to get away with consistently defeating M80 with those plates if you're always wearing soft armor, though that's obviously totally not something to be relied upon.

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Our agency shot the Velocity BZ with both M80 and 7.62x54R, IIRC. I'm not familiar with what the allowable NIJ BFD is or how well that standard translates to real world application, but it stopped them and the BFD didn't alarm me when I handled the test exemplar.

Personally, I'd take a stop with a blunt trauma hemothorax instead of a penetration any day of the week.

Hopefully I can answer all of the questions posed in this response.

Firstly, thank you for those that have contributed and made recommendations for both plates and retailers. I appreciate it.

I had the Shot Stop Duritium III+ plates. They were .7 inches thick and 2.7 pounds per plate. Supposedly they were rated for green tip SS109/M855. I'm not going to question the law suits or the efficacy of the plates. I don't want to find out what might happen should my plates end up being tested in the real world, no matter how small the possibility of this may be. I bought my plates through Ferro Concepts and they're offering a full refund of the purchase price. I cannot speak highly enough of them regarding how they're handling this.

My question earlier was perhaps, not phrased well.

I guess what I was trying to ask was this. Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed? I'm not sure how well that question can be answered as threats probably vary based upon region, location, beat, and a variety of other factors.

I really do love how light weight my current plates are. I believe anything at or around that three pound mark is going to be desirable to me but i'm not really basing that around any real criteria other than subjective comfort. At the time that I purchased these plates, I believe they were the lightest "special threat" plate or III+ plate made. At least in that price bracket.

I'd be willing to take the weight penalty if there was a compelling argument for a III+ rating. I'm all ears.

I'm not sure if I care about NIJ certification. I'd love some education on whether or not people really believe this to be necessary, or not? I do appreciate certifications as they establish a baseline standard but I can't imagine that the REPUTABLE companies that we are talking about here are getting by selling armor with pixie dust promises.

Has anyone looked at these?

https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...43795976978655

The price point is pretty nice with the only downside being the thickness. I'm not sure if that is really all that much of a detractor for me as the weight and ballistic rating is where I want it to be.

I think that covers most of the questions levied towards me.

Thanks again guys.

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Hopefully I can answer all of the questions posed in this response.

Firstly, thank you for those that have contributed and made recommendations for both plates and retailers. I appreciate it.

I had the Shot Stop Duritium III+ plates. They were .7 inches thick and 2.7 pounds per plate. Supposedly they were rated for green tip SS109/M855. I'm not going to question the law suits or the efficacy of the plates. I don't want to find out what might happen should my plates end up being tested in the real world, no matter how small the possibility of this may be. I bought my plates through Ferro Concepts and they're offering a full refund of the purchase price. I cannot speak highly enough of them regarding how they're handling this.

My question earlier was perhaps, not phrased well.

I guess what I was trying to ask was this. Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed? I'm not sure how well that question can be answered as threats probably vary based upon region, location, beat, and a variety of other factors.

I really do love how light weight my current plates are. I believe anything at or around that three pound mark is going to be desirable to me but i'm not really basing that around any real criteria other than subjective comfort. At the time that I purchased these plates, I believe they were the lightest "special threat" plate or III+ plate made. At least in that price bracket.

I'd be willing to take the weight penalty if there was a compelling argument for a III+ rating. I'm all ears.

I'm not sure if I care about NIJ certification. I'd love some education on whether or not people really believe this to be necessary, or not? I do appreciate certifications as they establish a baseline standard but I can't imagine that the REPUTABLE companies that we are talking about here are getting by selling armor with pixie dust promises.

Has anyone looked at these?

https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...43795976978655

The price point is pretty nice with the only downside being the thickness. I'm not sure if that is really all that much of a detractor for me as the weight and ballistic rating is where I want it to be.

I think that covers most of the questions levied towards me.

Thanks again guys.

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IIRC, you’ve been at your job for a while. How long do you stay under hard armor? Having spent nearly every waking hour of many weeks in a full plate carrier, I would add weight to reduce bulk all day long. I’m sure it’s personal preference and it does suck, but I can work around added weight easier than added bulk in a normal situation. Add in the requirement to manipulate anything like a weapon or person, or move in/around something like a building or vehicle, this becomes even more true. YMMV.

I haven't put this plate on a scale, but coming from Esapis it was a welcome change. Edit: 1.47lb on manufacturer's sight.

Attachment 115328
Edit: Image obscures text.
Paraclete Omega
Must be worn ICW CB-S2-BII-1, AXIIIA, AXII, AXBIIIA
Soft Armor, size 8" X 10"
-5.56mm x 45mm (M193)
-7.62mm x 39mm (PS Ball)
-7.62mm x 39mm, BALL (LC)
-7.62mm x 51mm (M80)

Issued by the agency I was at, a friend gifted me a spare he aquired. ICW, and worn within officer's vests. Low profile enough to be worn under uniform top, but a plate carrier thrown over the uniform would work too.

Final edit: Realized you're looking for 855 stoppage. This plate isn't rated for that. There is an Omega Plus that's 2.5ish lbs that is rated. Might be worth a look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

I guess what I was trying to ask was this. Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed?

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Yes.

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America, and M855 is popular and easily sourced. Both the rifle and M855 are widely proliferated in America.

Purposely buying rifle plates which aren't rated for M855 in order to save an insignificant amount of weight seems very foolish to me. Requiring a compelling argument to overcome this strikes me as bizarre.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed?

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Here is an SME's take on your exact questions

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

I had the Shot Stop Duritium III+ plates. They were .7 inches thick and 2.7 pounds per plate. Supposedly they were rated for green tip SS109/M855. I'm not going to question the law suits or the efficacy of the plates. I don't want to find out what might happen should my plates end up being tested in the real world, no matter how small the possibility of this may be. I bought my plates through Ferro Concepts and they're offering a full refund of the purchase price. I cannot speak highly enough of them regarding how they're handling this.

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The ShotStop Duritium III+PA are not rated for M855. As a pure UHMWPE plate, they provide minimal protection against it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

I'm not sure if I care about NIJ certification. I'd love some education on whether or not people really believe this to be necessary, or not? I do appreciate certifications as they establish a baseline standard but I can't imagine that the REPUTABLE companies that we are talking about here are getting by selling armor with pixie dust promises.

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I asked about NIJ certification only because I've heard of some departments mandating that armor must be NIJ certified; same thing with some grants that are out there that help with departments to purchase armor. If it's just for your own personal use and the department has no say, I personally would say NIJ certification is a non-issue if it defeats the threats you're after and is from a reputable brand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Has anyone looked at these?

https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...43795976978655

The price point is pretty nice with the only downside being the thickness. I'm not sure if that is really all that much of a detractor for me as the weight and ballistic rating is where I want it to be.

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I will note that those are also a pure UHMWPE plate, and will not defeat M855.

I think the key thing you're missing here is that level III+ is nothing more than a marketing term to mean that the plate was tested to defeat M80 to NIJ standards, along with some other random rounds, as the NIJ standards for rifle plates only focus on M80 for level III and M2AP for level IV. As previously noted, the newest standards will help mitigate these, as they are a bit more inclusive (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and 7.62×39mm MSC, RF2 must defeat all the same things along with M855, while RF3 only needs to defeat M2AP). For the Duritium III+PA, I suspect they are getting away with the "plus" designation because they also tested it against M193 and 7.62×39mm MSC, but the information flyer does specifically state that it doesn't defeat M855 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00..._PA_VT.pdf?364). For the DFNDR, note that it states "this armor is specifically designed to defeat the Mild Steel Core Chinese and PS Ball Russian 7.62x39 AK-47 threats. This system also defeats standard lead core .308, 7.62, .223 and 5.56 threats"; it says nothing about rounds that utilize a steel core in the latter calibers, only for 7.62×39mm. For M855 defeat, you would need what DFNDR calls their level III++ (https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...ted-body-armor).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TGS

Yes.

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America, and M855 is popular and easily sourced. Both the rifle and M855 are widely proliferated in America.

Purposely buying rifle plates which aren't rated for M855 in order to save an insignificant amount of weight seems very foolish to me. Requiring a compelling argument to overcome this strikes me as bizarre.

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Er...thanks?

By that logic I guess I should just purchase what our SWAT teams use including groin protection, deltoid protection etc? Shit, i'll just get level four plates. I better up my game and run level four plates on patrol too then...

Come on man. I'm looking for information. I'm not looking to be talked down to. If I misinterpreted your post, apologies. E-handshake brother.

Lets maintain some perspective here guys.

This is not a callout vest. This is not a patrol vest.

This is a limited use vest which MAY be used in an active shooter response. I could be facing anything from a pistol to a 12 gauge to a rifle of unknown caliber. Your point absolutely stands regarding the rifle factor and that's why I asked. I have my own thoughts on the threat protection level that I believe I need but I wanted other opinions. Light weight and comfort mean a lot to me and as with everything, there is always a trade off.

EDIT: ICW plates are not an option guys. I can only see this vest being used off duty when I'm not wearing soft armor. I don't know if I made that clear in my first or follow up posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wake27

IIRC, you’ve been at your job for a while. How long do you stay under hard armor? Having spent nearly every waking hour of many weeks in a full plate carrier, I would add weight to reduce bulk all day long. I’m sure it’s personal preference and it does suck, but I can work around added weight easier than added bulk in a normal situation. Add in the requirement to manipulate anything like a weapon or person, or move in/around something like a building or vehicle, this becomes even more true. YMMV.

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Rare.

We are working on a level four armor solution for our SWAT negotiators. I'll start building first hand experience from there. :)

I train in my active shooter kit but that's limited to eight hour days twice a month. That's also with super lightweight thin plates currently. lol.

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Originally Posted by Default.mp3

The ShotStop Duritium III+PA are not rated for M855. As a pure UHMWPE plate, they provide minimal protection against it.

I asked about NIJ certification only because I've heard of some departments mandating that armor must be NIJ certified; same thing with some grants that are out there that help with departments to purchase armor. If it's just for your own personal use and the department has no say, I personally would say NIJ certification is a non-issue if it defeats the threats you're after and is from a reputable brand.

I will note that those are also a pure UHMWPE plate, and will not defeat M855.

I think the key thing you're missing here is that level III+ is nothing more than a marketing term to mean that the plate was tested to defeat M80 to NIJ standards, along with some other random rounds, as the NIJ standards for rifle plates only focus on M80 for level III and M2AP for level IV. As previously noted, the newest standards will help mitigate these, as they are a bit more inclusive (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and 7.62×39mm MSC, RF2 must defeat all the same things along with M855, while RF3 only needs to defeat M2AP). For the Duritium III+PA, I suspect they are getting away with the "plus" designation because they also tested it against M193 and 7.62×39mm MSC, but the information flyer does specifically state that it doesn't defeat M855 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00..._PA_VT.pdf?364). For the DFNDR, note that it states "this armor is specifically designed to defeat the Mild Steel Core Chinese and PS Ball Russian 7.62x39 AK-47 threats. This system also defeats standard lead core .308, 7.62, .223 and 5.56 threats"; it says nothing about rounds that utilize a steel core in the latter calibers, only for 7.62×39mm. For M855 defeat, you would need what DFNDR calls their level III++ (https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...ted-body-armor).

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Great info.

I am most DEFINITELY confusing my ratings. I was under the impression a III+ plate was a special threat plate rated to stop green tip. There are a ton of resources out there that say III+ can stop M855?

https://midwestarmor.com/how-to-choo...m_content=text

Thank you for educating me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Great info.

I am most DEFINITELY confusing my ratings. I was under the impression a III+ plate was a special threat plate rated to stop green tip. There are a ton of resources out there that say III+ can stop M855?

https://midwestarmor.com/how-to-choo...m_content=text

Thank you for educating me.

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The problem is that nothing outside the official NIJ standards is, well, standardized. Level III+ is typically used as a short-hand way of saying a plate does defeat both M855 and M193 besides the NIJ requisite M80, but because it is just a marketing term, there are folks out there that just use it to mean nothing more than they've tested a few other rounds to be defeated besides M80, and they're not really wrong to do that.
https://media.tenor.com/fVtcUsX--ZsA...t-futurama.gif

I'll also note that special threat is a fairly vague term, but it typically means a plate that has been tested to defeat specific threats, but do not meet any NIJ standards, such as the Hesco U210/U211 or TenCate 6450; they defeat many smaller caliber rounds at typical velocities just fine (M855, M855A1, M193, 7.62×39mm MSC, 7.62×39mm AP BZI, 7N6), and can even defeat larger caliber rounds like M80 to a limited extent, but cannot meet the NIJ standards for level III (which require 6 hits on the same plate, while the 6450 in testing apparently is only able to tank one to two to satisfactory standards). Again, just like with level III+, it's just a marketing term, so you'll find all types of ways its being used, so you ultimately will need to look at specifically what threats each plate is rated to defeat at the end to make a truly informed decision. There are other standards out there besides NIJ in use, but they tend to be much less common on the civilian side (SAPI, E-SAPI, DEA, etc.).

An easy rule of thumb I use is this:

• UHMWPE plates are defeated by M855
• Steel plates are defeated by M193

Thus, a plate should either be a hybrid of the two material, or else use ceramic (whether a pure ceramic plate or a hybrid containing ceramic) to have well-rounded threat defeat. There are exceptions, of course, but as a quick heuristic to figure out what a plate will probably protect against, it works quite well.

I’ll also say that if you’re going to buy plates for active shooter response, the plates should be rated for M855 and M193. The AR-15 is the most common rifle in America and most ARs are chambered in 5.56. If you run into an active shooter, there’s a good chance they have an AR so facing M855 is realistic. Why get plates that aren’t rated for one of the most likely rifle threats you could face?

ICW doesn’t mean you have to wear an entire IIA vest underneath a plate carrier. You can buy IIIA backers cut in the shape of the plate and the soft backer and the plate both get slid into the plate pocket of the carrier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WobblyPossum

I’ll also say that if you’re going to buy plates for active shooter response, the plates should be rated for M855 and M193. The AR-15 is the most common rifle in America and most ARs are chambered in 5.56. If you run into an active shooter, there’s a good chance they have an AR so facing M855 is realistic. Why get plates that aren’t rated for one of the most likely rifle threats you could face?

ICW doesn’t mean you have to wear an entire IIA vest underneath a plate carrier. You can buy IIIA backers cut in the shape of the plate and the soft backer and the plate both get slid into the plate pocket of the carrier.

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Fair enough. Although I'm not sure what the benefit to that may be? Better blunt force trauma mitigation because of the soft panel?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Er...thanks?

By that logic I guess I should just purchase what our SWAT teams use including groin protection, deltoid protection etc? Shit, i'll just get level four plates. I better up my game and run level four plates on patrol too then...

Come on man. I'm looking for information. I'm not looking to be talked down to. If I misinterpreted your post, apologies. E-handshake brother.

Lets maintain some perspective here guys.

This is not a callout vest. This is not a patrol vest.

This is a limited use vest which MAY be used in an active shooter response. I could be facing anything from a pistol to a 12 gauge to a rifle of unknown caliber. Your point absolutely stands regarding the rifle factor and that's why I asked. I have my own thoughts on the threat protection level that I believe I need but I wanted other opinions. Light weight and comfort mean a lot to me and as with everything, there is always a trade off.

EDIT: ICW plates are not an option guys. I can only see this vest being used off duty when I'm not wearing soft armor. I don't know if I made that clear in my first or follow up posts.

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Nothing in my post should be interpreted that you should be wearing Level 4 plates, unless you have a preponderance of AP being used in your area (which if CONUS, you don't).

The point is simple: if you're making a decision to put on plates, then put on plates which meet reasonably expected threats. Yes, it's reasonable to expect M855 as a threat for a LEO in America. So, yes, you should buy plates which stop M855.

That's keeping it in perspective. That's a realistic and reasonable answer to your question. That's not me being a dick to you.

What Erick and TGS have written above is right on target so to speak.

It is easy to stop 7.62 M80 ball and 7.62x39mm ball; harder to stop M193 and M855. M855A1 and M80A1 are substantially more difficult to stop.

As noted, in CONUS, your plates need to stop both M193, as well as M855. If you work near a US military installation, then stopping M855A1 and M80A1 may be a necessary consideration.

Level IV is absolutely stupid, as it is designed to stop mid 20th century threats (ie. WWII era AP projectiles) that are virtually non-exisitant in CONUS. If you truly need to stop AP projectiles, then get something designed to stop modern AP threats, at a minimum late 20th century M995 and M993, and higher capability if facing 21st century AP loads.

Oh--10x12 sizing is also lame; SAPI sized are far preferable.

And yes, this remains valid: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post281766

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DocGKR

What Erick and TGS have written above is right on target so to speak.

It is easy to stop 7.62 M80 ball and 7.62x39mm ball; harder to stop M193 and M855. M855A1 and M80A1 are substantially more difficult to stop.

As noted, in CONUS, your plates need to stop both M193, as well as M855. If you work near a US military installation, then stopping M855A1 and M80A1 may be a necessary consideration.

Level IV is absolutely stupid, as it is designed to stop mid 20th century threats (ie. WWII era AP projectiles) that are virtually non-exisitant in CONUS. If you truly need to stop AP projectiles, then get something designed to stop modern AP threats, at a minimum late 20th century M995 and M993, and higher capability if facing 21st century AP loads.

Oh--10x12 sizing is also lame; SAPI sized are far preferable.

And yes, this remains valid: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post281766

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Doc,

I am a tad confused.

In your post in the other thread, you continually mention level III plates needing to stop M855.

I was under the impression that level III plates were not rated to stop that? Hence, why I erroneously gravitated towards III+ as I thought III+ was rated to stop 193 AND M855.

What am I missing here?

Does someone have a good breakdown of the NIJ standard? I looked NIJ 0101.04. It simply lists III as being rated for M80 ball. Level 4 is listed as being "AP" rated.

Is this the wrong standard?

The marketing fluff from companies sure can get confusing lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Doc,

I am a tad confused.

In your post in the other thread, you continually mention level III plates needing to stop M855.

I was under the impression that level III plates were not rated to stop that? Hence, why I erroneously gravitated towards III+ as I thought III+ was rated to stop 193 AND M855.

What am I missing here?

Does someone have a good breakdown of the NIJ standard? I looked NIJ 0101.04. It simply lists III as being rated for M80 ball. Level 4 is listed as being "AP" rated.

Is this the wrong standard?

The marketing fluff from companies sure can get confusing lol.

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I think the point that DocGKR is making is that you absolutely do not need a level IV plate, but if you get a level III plate rather than a special threat, you absolute need to make sure it can defeat both M193 and M855. Level IIIs do not inherently defeat M193 or M855, but they can; he is dispensing with the marketing fluff of level III+ or III++, and speaking specifically about just NIJ rated level III plates in general (which in theory level III+ and level III++ plates are).

The current NIJ level III plate is rated to stop 6 rounds of M80. Level IV is rate to stop a single round of M2AP. There is no certification for defeating M193 or M855 at this time, though the next generation of standards will specify that (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and some flavor of 7.62×39mm, not sure if ball or MSC, RF2 must defeat the same things along with M855, RF3 is just a single round of M2AP, identical to the current level IV).

I think the path moving forward best would be to look at special threat plates and level III plates, and then see specifically what they are rated to defeat, looking specifically for M193 and M855 to both show up, paying attention to the velocities they were tested at (I recall seeing some steel plates stating that they defeated M193... at 2900 FPS, which can easily be exceeded by a 14.5" barrel); if they don't show up on the spec sheet as something defeated, ignore them, regardless of the rest of rating.

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Originally Posted by Default.mp3

I think the point that DocGKR is making is that you absolutely do not need a level IV plate, but if you get a level III plate rather than a special threat, you absolute need to make sure it can defeat both M193 and M855. Level IIIs do not inherently defeat M193 or M855, but they can; he is dispensing with the marketing fluff of level III+ or III++, and speaking specifically about just NIJ rated level III plates in general (which in theory level III+ and level III++ plates are).

The current NIJ level III plate is rated to stop 6 rounds of M80. Level IV is rate to stop a single round of M2AP. There is no certification for defeating M193 or M855 at this time, though the next generation of standards will specify that (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and some flavor of 7.62×39mm, not sure if ball or MSC, RF2 must defeat the same things along with M855, RF3 is just a single round of M2AP, identical to the current level IV).

I think the path moving forward best would be to look at special threat plates and level III plates, and then see specifically what they are rated to defeat, looking specifically for M193 and M855 to both show up, paying attention to the velocities they were tested at (I recall seeing some steel plates stating that they defeated M193... at 2900 FPS, which can easily be exceeded by a 14.5" barrel); if they don't show up on the spec sheet as something defeated, ignore them, regardless of the rest of rating.

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Ok.

That makes sense. Expounding on that totally clarifies what Doc was saying.

Back to shopping. :)

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Does someone have a good breakdown of the NIJ standard? I looked NIJ 0101.04. It simply lists III as being rated for M80 ball. Level 4 is listed as being "AP" rated.

Is this the wrong standard?

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@Magsz

Is it the wrong one? YES! 0101.04 is really, really old.

0101.06 took effect in the late 00s. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the 0101.07 standard was finally announced in November of last year. Here's a summary of what's in the new standard: https://americancop.com/nijs-new-body-armor-standards/

Here is NIJ Standard 0123.00 - Specification for NIJ Ballistic Protection Levels and Associated Test Threats, which is where the actual threats for NIJ 0101.07 are specified. You won't find these in the main document, that mostly goes over armor sizing, testing methodology etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Magsz

Rare.

We are working on a level four armor solution for our SWAT negotiators. I'll start building first hand experience from there. :)

I train in my active shooter kit but that's limited to eight hour days twice a month. That's also with super lightweight thin plates currently. lol.

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If you know others with some different varieties, it may be worth seeing if you can use them for a day. I wasn't concerned about the thickness until I got some super lightweight side plates that were about double the thickness of my front and back plates. I had immediate buyer's regret. I could have "trained around it" and gotten used to it, but didn't want to because the bulk was just too much for me to want to deal with. On the rifle ratings, I agree that I think 855 and 193 are a requirement. All of the notable high profile shootings I can think of recently had one of those rounds involved as far as I know.

I've been meaning to buy the VS API-BZs, I should really start setting aside cash for those.

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Originally Posted by Wake27

I've been meaning to buy the VS API-BZs, I should really start setting aside cash for those.

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I don't know what the pricing is on the VS API-BZs direct from VS, but you can find places selling the Tencate/Integris CR6450 more easily, and they're the same plate.