Todd Louis Green and the modern approach to using your sights

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Originally Posted by WobblyPossum

I enjoyed the video and found it to be an excellent explanation of “see what you need to see.” Also, as soon as I saw the iron sights training aid they used, I immediately knew I had to have them. If anyone else wants a set, they’re available at trainingsights.com. I found a 10% off code too, TSIGHTS. They aren’t cheap if you want them in anything larger than wallet sized, but I can see them being excellent training aids when I’m teaching so I bought an “Instructor Kit” in 4”x6” which has pistol iron sight, rifle iron sight, and red dot sight training aids.

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I notice that they don't have a card for blurry rear, blurry front, target focus...

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

I notice that they don't have a card for blurry rear, blurry front, target focus...

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They have a blurry rear iron and it says “New Version” in the corner of the photo. I wonder if the blurry front is on the way.

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Originally Posted by Bergeron

The recent Lucky Gunner video gets the good stuff from Mr. Ashton Ray and Mr. Tim Chandler.

This is the clearest guidance I have yet seen on sight usage, it appears to derive exactly from this thread, and this will be something I'll be eagerly passing off to the new shooters in my social circle. (It's weird, my friends are either brand-new to it all, or faaaar more talented than I am).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPhl1K6OHwE

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We were lucky to be able to get Chris and us in the same place at the same time with some space to film. Tac Con was BUSY for us. But we hoped it would at least provide some visual explanation to go along with the explanations put here. I also wanted us on record with how we approach reframing the use of a handgun.

What I'm trying to do, mainly, is teach people who have hit that plateau of competence how to get to the next level of performance. I'm trying to put something out there that does what Todd's AFHF program used to do for people, only with some updates that incorporates what I've figured out since. The biggest hurdle to contend with is what I'll term the institutional training concepts. (Equal height, equal light, front sight focus, build pressure on the trigger, etc) If I can reframe how someone thinks about the handgun to something they are more familiar with that gives them a better understanding of how it truly works, I've already won half the battle.

That's why I came up with (I don't remember hearing anyone else I ever trained with it explain it this way) the car analogy. The sights are the windshield. The windshield is a completely passive reference of where the vehicle is pointed. If you want it to go somewhere you need to use the steering wheel and the pedals. The steering wheel of the pistol is the grip. The trigger is our gas and brake. Staring at the windshield harder doesn't do a damn bit of good if you're heading for a tree. Properly working the steering wheel and the pedals fixes it.

In class I demonstrate with a blue gun and a reverse sight picture so clients can see just how much the muzzle moves when I simply change the amount of pressure I'm applying to the grip. Simply tightening your grip can move the pistol's aim off by feet at 3-4 yards.

I'm trying to get clients to understand that the sights are nothing more than a passive reflection of what's happening below them, just like the windshield is a passive reflection of what you're doing to the controls of the vehicle below the windshield. I use a car because it's a piece of machinery practically every adult has way more time with than a handgun. By the time I'm talking to you, you have had many hours of experience piloting a vehicle under all sorts of conditions that builds an inherent understanding I can take advantage of. You know what happens when you suddenly yank the wheel left or right. You know what happens when you stomp the brake. Etc. Well, those actions applied to a pistol produce more or less the same result in your shot.

If I can get people focusing on what they are doing to the grip and the trigger and just passively watching through the sights, then they'll perform to a significantly higher level in a very short period of time.

I just got this video in my email and watched it yesterday. A great explanation of this concept.
I'll be taking our CID people to the range the first part of June. I will be showing them this video before we head out....it demonstrates the concept far better than I could have tried to explain it. I'll be getting some of those training aids, as well.

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Originally Posted by Bergeron

The recent Lucky Gunner video ...

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Is good stuff. Imma get busy sharing that outside of p-f.

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Originally Posted by TCinVA

We were lucky to be able to get Chris and us in the same place at the same time with some space to film. Tac Con was BUSY for us. But we hoped it would at least provide some visual explanation to go along with the explanations put here. I also wanted us on record with how we approach reframing the use of a handgun.

What I'm trying to do, mainly, is teach people who have hit that plateau of competence how to get to the next level of performance. I'm trying to put something out there that does what Todd's AFHF program used to do for people, only with some updates that incorporates what I've figured out since. The biggest hurdle to contend with is what I'll term the institutional training concepts. (Equal height, equal light, front sight focus, build pressure on the trigger, etc) If I can reframe how someone thinks about the handgun to something they are more familiar with that gives them a better understanding of how it truly works, I've already won half the battle.

That's why I came up with (I don't remember hearing anyone else I ever trained with it explain it this way) the car analogy. The sights are the windshield. The windshield is a completely passive reference of where the vehicle is pointed. If you want it to go somewhere you need to use the steering wheel and the pedals. The steering wheel of the pistol is the grip. The trigger is our gas and brake. Staring at the windshield harder doesn't do a damn bit of good if you're heading for a tree. Properly working the steering wheel and the pedals fixes it.

In class I demonstrate with a blue gun and a reverse sight picture so clients can see just how much the muzzle moves when I simply change the amount of pressure I'm applying to the grip. Simply tightening your grip can move the pistol's aim off by feet at 3-4 yards.

I'm trying to get clients to understand that the sights are nothing more than a passive reflection of what's happening below them, just like the windshield is a passive reflection of what you're doing to the controls of the vehicle below the windshield. I use a car because it's a piece of machinery practically every adult has way more time with than a handgun. By the time I'm talking to you, you have had many hours of experience piloting a vehicle under all sorts of conditions that builds an inherent understanding I can take advantage of. You know what happens when you suddenly yank the wheel left or right. You know what happens when you stomp the brake. Etc. Well, those actions applied to a pistol produce more or less the same result in your shot.

If I can get people focusing on what they are doing to the grip and the trigger and just passively watching through the sights, then they'll perform to a significantly higher level in a very short period of time.

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I think this is one of the best explanations of iron sights that I have heard, you are a great teacher. I love red dots but the way you explained irons has me feeling better about carrying an iron sighted gun, which I feel like I perceived as putting me at a disadvantage.

So in regards to framing things:

A friend of mine who I've taught with for years (Brett Harnish) mentioned at breakfast the other day that he heard the gun-as-car analogy in the Border Patrol...quite some time ago.

Nothing new under the sun, my friends.

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Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

focusing precisely on the target with blurry irons works as well or better for me...

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This thread has been swirling around in the back of my head a lot lately. I tried to put it, and, in particular, CF's remark above, into practice this week. At the end of my range session, I looked at the target, kinda sorta aligned the sights, and let 'er rip. Had some success, even at 15 yards.

Excerpt from my offline journal below.

Attachment 106807

Will keep working on this in dry practice. This discussion is yet another reason why I am a site supporter here.

I have an application-specific question on this topic, be grateful for any input.

So, this scenario involves shooting bowling pins. Start position is mandated to be low ready, on the rail. Start signal is a gunshot. After hearing the start, competitors engage 5 pins from 26 feet, (ideally) knocking them all off the table. This is harder than it looks.

Video below is a sample. This is from a run I did with my P365X and Speer Gold Dot 124+p "for fun", at The Pin Shoot in Central Lake Michigan last June.

(Typically shooters use .45, but I thought it would be interesting to see what I could do with my actual carry gun. The answer is 9mm does not have the massXvelocity to move the 2.5 lb bowling pins, as you can see in the video.)

I am around 1.66 sec. I think I can shave some time off that, but what would be the best way? I really don't think just knee-jerking the gun up and on target is best. It seems like when I do that there is a lot of potential for overshoot.

Should I pull the gun up/back to the "press out" position, then float it out? Or something in between, like raising it up to a foot or so from full extension, then do a mini-press out?

This is something I plan to explore in Dry Practice soon, but I was curious if anyone had any thoughts before I do. If not, no problem; I'll post back with anything of note.

This is such a great thread. Really made me think, and I keep coming back to it from time to time (current post is a good example of that.)

https://youtu.be/ujd8JaHlhYQ?si=zEZ8T8ZUtt1fDIxb

I have had much the troubles as you. From the short clip I would take some time with the bowling pins. A harder caliber can clear them effectively from the bench. But that looks like good shooting