The gun that beat H&K at their own game: The Haenel Mr223/556 tabletop review

Hey guys,


Just did a little tabletop review of my Haenel Cr223/BT-15. I bought it as a historical curiosity because it is the gun that beat H&K to be the next German army rifle. Of course H&K sued and got the award overturned( IN A WORLD OF COMPROMISE, SOME MEN SUE). But everybody knows Haenel beat H&K. The reports at the time indicated that while Haenel definitely undercut H&K's price, they also performed slightly better (although both guns performed substantially the same).

The gun is very nice, and has some unusual features. The price BT is asking is outrageous (although Arms Unlimited recently cut these to 2500). But it is definitely an interesting gun. Also, it is neat because we are actually able to get the gun with all German parts because B&T somehow seems to understand how to import pistols where H&K doesn't or won't. It's a cool piece, and I suspect they won't be around much longer.

I took mine out to zero it but promptly lost the stupid cap to my Aimpoint M5 and it was raining so I called off zeroing it until later.

https://youtu.be/RW2sopiOajc

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Originally Posted by Greg Bell

Hey guys,


Just did a little tabletop review of my Haenel Cr223/BT-15. I bought it as a historical curiosity because it is the gun that beat H&K to be the next German army rifle. Of course H&K sued and got the award overturned( IN A WORLD OF COMPROMISE, SOME MEN SUE). But everybody knows Haenel beat H&K. The reports at the time indicated that while Haenel definitely undercut H&K's price, they also performed slightly better (although both guns performed substantially the same).

The gun is very nice, and has some unusual features. The price BT is asking is outrageous (although Arms Unlimited recently cut these to 2500). But it is definitely an interesting gun. Also, it is neat because we are actually able to get the gun with all German parts because B&T somehow seems to understand how to import pistols where H&K doesn't or won't. It's a cool piece, and I suspect they won't be around much longer.

I took mine out to zero it but promptly lost the stupid cap to my Aimpoint M5 and it was raining so I called off zeroing it until later.

https://youtu.be/RW2sopiOajc

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The Haenel is technically interesting for a few reasons but the back story is not as you portray it in your post.

Good summary here: https://strikehold.net/2020/10/09/bu...der-cancelled/

Plus it has the dick mod rail system the euro trash seem obsessed with.

I mentioned the patent infringement. They principally revolved around the "Over the beach" (holes) in the gun. It is interesting that HK didn't care about this until they lost.

Haenel definitely undercut them in price. HK's complaint is similar to Bezos' complaint about Musk, that they is basically subsidizing (dumping) the rifle to get the contract. This is the same complaint folks made against SIG when they won the M17 contract.

The Haenel is not a copy of the Caracal 816. Haenel does however build the 816 under license from their parent company. The Haenel is, however, a further development of the 816, which is a development of the SIG 516, which is a development of the 416 (by the very same engineers). And of course the 416 is just an M4 with a G36 gas system, which is just a development of the AR-18 gas system.


Basically Haenel was going to make 90% of the rifle in Germany. It was going to be financed by their extremely rich owners in the Abu Dhabi for sure. It was clearly, much like the Sig M17, an attempt to leapfrog to the front of the line of quality small arms manufacturers by selling the guns cheap and making the money back later with other sales.

There is another layer to this that is discussed in the German media. The leftists of the German Left Party were extremely upset that a company with connections in the UAE were going to get the contract. Not because they were patriotic, but because the UAE had recently normalized relations with Israel (which German socialists can't stop hating).

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/an...ed-firm-642569

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Originally Posted by HCM

The Haenel is technically interesting for a few reasons but the back story is not as you portray it.

The Haenel is a German built copy of the UAE produced Caracal 816, which is itself a clone of the HK 416. The German govt told HK the 416 was too expensive so HK made their own budget clone of the 416, the 433.

HK’s lawsuit is that aspects of the Haenel /Caracal infringe on HK patents.

My understanding is Haenel won the award on price but put in an artificially low bid to win the contract. There are allegations Haenel did so with the intention of subcontracting out much of the production to Caracal. One thing that’s not in dispute is Haenel lacks the capacity to actually produce a sufficient number of weapons in Germany to meet contact requirements.

Good summary here: https://strikehold.net/2020/10/09/bu...der-cancelled/

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greg Bell

I mentioned the patent infringement. They principally revolved around the "Over the beach" (holes) in the gun. It is interesting that HK didn't care about this until they lost.

Haenel definitely undercut them in price. HK's complaint is similar to Bezos' complaint about Musk, that they is basically subsidizing (dumping) the rifle to get the contract. This is the same complaint folks made against SIG when they won the M17 contract.

The Haenel is not a copy of the Caracal 816. Haenel does however build the 816 under license from their parent company. The Haenel is, however, a further development of the 816, which is a development of the SIG 516, which is a development of the 416 (by the very same engineers). And of course the 416 is just an M4 with a G36 gas system, which is just an AR-18 gas system.


Basically Haenel was going to make 90% of the rifle in Germany. It was going to be financed by their extremely rich owners in the Abu Dhabi for sure. It was clearly, much like the Sig M17, an attempt to leapfrog to the front of the line of quality small arms manufacturers by selling the guns cheap and making the money back later with other sales.

There is another layer to this that is discussed in the German media. The leftists in south were extremely upset that a company with connections in the UAE were going to get the contract. Not because they were patriotic, but because the UAE had recently normalized relations with Israel (which German socialists can't stop hating).

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/an...ed-firm-642569

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It’s normal for countries to want defense articles to be made domestically.

Haenel doesn’t even have the capacity to make 90% of the rifle domestically.

The gun itself is interesting (other than the dickmod) but the company is shady as hell.

Well, the keymod was what they wanted. The HK entrants had it as well.

Again, the gun was to be 90% domestic. H&k was also in a bind as to whether they had the capacity to produce the rifles due to their ongoing obligation to the French. I suspect Caracal would have spent the money to get it done. Doesn’t matter anymore. Just another weapons contract scuttled by the loser’s legal challenge and superior political connections. We know what the army wanted, but ultimately it’s just an interesting historical piece for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HCM

It’s normal for countries to want defense articles to be made domestically.

Haenel doesn’t even have the capacity to make 90% of the rifle domestically.

The gun itself is interesting (other than the dickmod) but the company is shady as hell.

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While I agree with HCM on this one, I really like your introduction video to your Dumb Gun Collector Channel. It's humorous and self-effacing. You actually have better video editing skills than many guntubers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQwbX2NEOU&t=12s

Much appreciated. I just need to buy a microphone, better looks and a deeper voice. That’s all I need!


“While I agree with HCM on this one.”

Well, I may have purposely made it a little spicy:)

Just get some type of voice software that can change your voice to sound like Morgan Freeman. I have no idea if this software really works. I would buy it if it had an instant Morgan Freeman mode as opposed to a bunch of settings that you had to spend a few days messing with and still not get anything that sounds the way that you want.

Wait, from the link: :The Morgan Freeman voice preset is available in a zip file. You need to extract the files before using them in the software. Here, you can find two types of files – .txt and .nvc. You only need the .nvc file."

https://techdentro.com/morgan-freeman-voice-generator/

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Originally Posted by HCM

Plus it has the dick mod rail system the euro trash seem obsessed with.

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It's my understanding that the Europeans specifically wanted ITAR-free designs, thus ruling out M-LOK.

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Originally Posted by Greg Bell

Well, the keymod was what they wanted. The HK entrants had it as well.

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Do you have a source for this? I had always though it was HKey.

Any chance you could see if HK416 handguards fit?

"Do you have a source for this? I had always though it was HKey."

You are right. I meant that there wasn't any way someone who must "MLOK all things" was going to be happy with the German rifle entrants. Honestly, most of the reporting on this is speculative, especially in the firearms press. The German media detailed the politics of it but most of the gun media stuff was just people speculating on what they thought might be the reason. My guess is that once they selected the Hanel rifle, HK, completely blown away, called the politicians that they needed and the folks in the media that were friendly. There is no way they would have waited until after they lost to make the patent claim if they thought it was legitimate. If you look at the media reports HK also claimed that the testing was rigged against them. You don't say the testing was rigged if your entrant came out ahead. For H&K, it was probably more important to nuke the whole project than win.

Hilariously, the other side also was planting stories in the media. Right before Haenel was announced as the winner there was a huge story in the media pointing out that H&K was founded by a bunch of NAZI engineers. This is of course, silly, because Haenel has substantial links to the Third Reich (at least the name does) and it is well known that H&K's founders were a bunch of old Mauser guys. But I think they were prepping to soften the landing of their choice. And of course it is hilarious that the German Left Party hates Jews so much they would try and tank Haenel because of the UAE's embrace of Israel (especially given the German Left's antipathy towards German arms manufacturers) There are zillions of layers to this onion.




"Any chance you could see if HK416 handguards fit?"

They don't Chen Lee tried it and the Haenel's receiver design isn't as tall (it is closer to standard M4 height).