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bdcheung
03-30-2012, 12:52 PM
So one of the weaknesses that came out of the KSTG match on Tuesday was my second-shot accuracy. Aside from practicing the "double-tap", are there any other drills (either live- or dry-fire) that I can practice that will help with this?

caleb
03-30-2012, 12:56 PM
So one of the weaknesses that came out of the KSTG match on Tuesday was my second-shot accuracy. Aside from practicing the "double-tap", are there any other drills (either live- or dry-fire) that I can practice that will help with this?

In dry practice, I do a lot of "reset drills" where I'll cycle the slide on the gun, let the trigger out to the reset point and press it back as slowly as possible. Like a wall drill but with reset.

JV
03-30-2012, 12:58 PM
First, I would make sure you're getting a good grip and not cheating it. Sometimes people cheat their grip and get off one shot a little sooner, but the poor grip doesn't allow for a good followup shot.

Also, I would practice drills that help track your sights. Like this one:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/88

I like to shoot at an 8" circle @ 5Y. I try to shoot at a pace of 1 shot / second. I'm focusing on watching the front sight. After a mag or two, I try and shoot at a pace of 1 shot every 3/4 of a second. Then 1 shot every half second.

bdcheung
03-30-2012, 12:59 PM
First, I would make sure you're getting a good grip and not cheating it.

Could you explain "cheating it"?

Also, is there any value in practicing sight tracking with a .22lr pistol? I know that once I start working on speed, the .22lr is kinda worthless since the pacing is different, but to get the fundamentals of watching the front sight, could I save some $$ by shooting the .22 (which is also an M&P)?

ETA: Thanks for the tips, JV and Caleb. Very much appreciate the help!

OrigamiAK
03-30-2012, 01:02 PM
In dry practice, I do a lot of "reset drills" where I'll cycle the slide on the gun, let the trigger out to the reset point and press it back as slowly as possible. Like a wall drill but with reset.

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of this myself, though I'm not specifically slowing the trigger press - just trying to make it a good one. I combine this with on-target transitions (body to head) and target-to-target transitions too.

Magsz
03-30-2012, 01:03 PM
Could you explain "cheating it"?

Also, is there any value in practicing sight tracking with a .22lr pistol? I know that once I start working on speed, the .22lr is kinda worthless since the pacing is different, but to get the fundamentals of watching the front sight, could I save some $$ by shooting the .22 (which is also an M&P)?

ETA: Thanks for the tips, JV and Caleb. Very much appreciate the help!

Yes, absolutely provided you're shooting a .22 with a RECIPROCATING SLIDE.

Otherwise, the only thing you're going to be working on is breaking the shot when your sights are where they want to be.

Using a .22 caliber gun with a reciprocating slide allows you to work all of the fundamentals of trigger press and sight tracking at least to a certain extent. Again, not to use JV's term but, dont "cheat" with your grip. Maintain consistent pressure even with the .22.

caleb
03-30-2012, 01:03 PM
For me, the big value of a .22 is in trigger control, which I can get from dry practice instead. I honestly don't shoot much .22 these days.

JV
03-30-2012, 01:04 PM
Could you explain "cheating it"?The grip is good enough to get off one shot, but not good enough to properly control the recoil/rise. You can have a suboptimal grip for one shot, but you may not see the negatives until you try to fire the 2nd shot.

It's common, for me, with reloads. I often shoot 1-R-1, and I can get a suboptimal grip after the reload to get a smoking (for me) time, but if I had to shoot a 1-R-2 the last split would be horrible. I have to take the extra time to get the right grip after the reload.

bdcheung
03-30-2012, 01:05 PM
Yes, absolutely provided you're shooting a .22 with a RECIPROCATING SLIDE.

It is, so yay :)



The grip is good enough to get off one shot, but not good enough to properly control the recoil/rise. You can have a suboptimal grip for one shot, but you may not see the negatives until you try to fire the 2nd shot.

It's common, for me, with reloads. I often shoot 1-R-1, and I can get a suboptimal grip after the reload to get a smoking (for me) time, but if I had to shoot a 1-R-2 the last split would be horrible. I have to take the extra time to get the right grip after the reload.

That makes perfect sense, thanks!

rsa-otc
03-30-2012, 02:33 PM
Rob Leatham's take on using dry fire practice for second shot recovery.

http://www.guntalk.tv/gtv/library.php?video_id=690

For learning to control recoil and grip, he feels you need to do it live fire.

Dropkick
03-30-2012, 02:42 PM
Here's the kicker with .22LR pistols: Since there is not as much recoil, you can get away with a weaker grip, and still be able to sight-track well. You could be tea-cupping it, and still have a nice group quickly. If you do the same with your conventional pistol calibers and that won't fly.

So what it boils down to is: How good your grip is relates to how well you manage recoil, which relates to how well you can track your sights (with the assumption of a perfect trigger press and proper slight alignment.)

From my experience, the two best ways to improve your grip is by grip technique, and grip strength, in that order.

gringop
03-31-2012, 12:40 PM
For pure controlled pairs, I've had the best luck shooting 4" dots at 10 yards. They are tight enough that you can't get away with index or super fast flash sight pictures but big enough to press your speed and still make hits.

I've never had success with dryfire on improving second shot skills. The recoil impulse is not there in dryfire and vastly different in rimfire.

As others have said, perfect recoil management is key to perfect second (or third, fourth, etc.) shots. When the sights drop right back down on target in <.20 sec you can shoot .30 sec controlled pair splits. If you have to find em and bring em back on target, it's a lot slower.

Gringop

jthhapkido
04-02-2012, 02:55 PM
So one of the weaknesses that came out of the KSTG match on Tuesday was my second-shot accuracy. Aside from practicing the "double-tap", are there any other drills (either live- or dry-fire) that I can practice that will help with this?

Don't shoot double-taps?

The problem is (and I don't know if you do this, so if you don't, ignore this post) that most people who do "double-taps" get one sight picture and rip off two trigger pulls. Unsurprisingly, they tend to often have extremely poor accuracy with the second shot---which makes sense, since they generally have no idea where the sights were when the gun fired the second time.

Don't shoot double taps. Shoot controlled pairs. Get the sight picture appropriate for the situation for each and every shot you fire. If it is a full-body target at 2 yards, then the sight picture that is necessary is pretty basic (is the slide pointed in the right direction?). If, on the other hand, you are trying to hit a 6" circle at 10 yards, you might succeed with double-taps, but if so, it is only because you are getting lucky with a good grip or have had lots of practice. Chances are if you try more than two shots, the third won't be on target. And automatic double-taps on 3x5 cards at 10 yards---good luck.

Controlled shots with appropriate sight pictures aren't much slower, and will actually _hit the target_ on followup shots (this includes shooting more than twice). Have the visual patience to see what you need to see to make the shot. "Double-taps" by definition, will NOT do this.

If you can't tell, I'm not a fan of double-taps because 1) we don't know if two shots will stop the problem, and I don't like the idea of training for two shots automatically, particularly when 2) in almost any case of a low-percentage shot, the second won't hit what you want it to. And even in high-percentage situations, shooting when you don't know where the sights are doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. (The first half of the FAST drill is an excellent example of this issue. So is the second half of the FAST drill.)

Ok, I'm done ranting. Again, if this isn't you, ignore it. :)

bdcheung
04-02-2012, 03:00 PM
Don't shoot double-taps?

I haven't been. I actually hadn't been practicing double-taps or controlled pairs at all before KSTG. Just focusing on a safe draw and good press-out.


Don't shoot double taps. Shoot controlled pairs. Get the sight picture appropriate for the situation for each and every shot you fire. If it is a full-body target at 2 yards, then the sight picture that is necessary is pretty basic (is the slide pointed in the right direction?). If, on the other hand, you are trying to hit a 6" circle at 10 yards, you might succeed with double-taps, but if so, it is only because you are getting lucky with a good grip or have had lots of practice. Chances are if you try more than two shots, the third won't be on target. And automatic double-taps on 3x5 cards at 10 yards---good luck.


This is valuable advice. What I've done since the match is set up a 4"x6" index card at 21', start from the high compressed ready, and practice a press-out, proper sight tracking, and second shot. I think of this as a "controlled pair". My objective is to get both shots on target as quickly as possible.

Thanks for the post!

ToddG
04-03-2012, 04:33 PM
Don't shoot double taps, controlled pairs, or any other "2 then done" drills if you're having trouble with followup shots. All it will teach you to do is manage recoil, sights, and trigger well enough for two shots.

Shoot longer strings. I like to use 5-shot drills (especially when my mags are loaded with 15 rounds) or, better yet, some kind of variable like "two to five." Get used to bringing the gun up, shooting some shots, then bringing it back down. Don't get wrapped up in a number. There's a reason why each KSTG match there are targets that need 6, targets that need 3, targets that need 2, and often at least one target that only needs 1.

As for how to get better at followups, it's a function of the things mentioned above: recoil management, sight management, and trigger management. You cannot fire aimed shots faster than you can see your sights. You cannot fire accurate shots faster than you can manipulate the trigger with the necessary level of finesse for a given target. You cannot fire multiple shots faster than you can get the gun back down from recoil and in line with the target.

Find a pair of dice and bring them to the range with you. Roll one and whatever number you roll, draw and fire that many shots at the target. Work very hard not to look at the target between shots... keep your eyes on the sights. Work very hard to reset the trigger in recoil and then finish with a good press only after you have positive visual confirmation that your sights are on target. Do not "work very hard to control recoil." Controlling recoil will happen on its own if you do the other two properly. You may need to tweak your grip or stance to maximize recoil control, but you shouldn't be doing anything with your muscles while the gun is recoiling. The gun will come back down on target by itself if you're using your eyes to steer the gun.

(edited to add: you're bringing a pair of dice because you'll lose one before the session is over...)

bdcheung
04-05-2012, 07:54 AM
Some great advice, thanks to everyone who posted!

I don't have dice, but I do have a "random" number generator app for my iPhone that I'll use. Hope to hit the range tonight after mass.

p.s. Todd, when will you have the AFHF schedule for 2013?

ToddG
04-05-2012, 07:57 AM
I don't have dice, but I do have a "random" number generator app for my iPhone that I'll use.

Kids these days...


p.s. Todd, when will you have the AFHF schedule for 2013?

Probably not until Nov/Dec of 2012.