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View Full Version : NoVA KSTG match Tuesday 25-March-2014



joshs
03-15-2014, 12:58 PM
KSTG (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2330-KSTG) match
Tuesday 25-March-2014
$25
Estimated Round Count: 50-75
Squads begin at 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, 8pm, and 9pm. Six people maximum per squad.

Registration is open now. Call 703-267-1402 to reserve a slot.

daltona117
03-26-2014, 09:25 AM
Great match. Really enjoyed the stages. They were definitely more challenging this time. Really liked the flashlight stage.

LittleLebowski
03-26-2014, 09:54 AM
Apologies for the late start, folks. The setup and design crew was ready to go at 2 PM. We were not able to start until nearly 4 PM. An ICE training session went late and there was literally nothing we could do.

trock
03-26-2014, 10:05 AM
Thanks for putting this match on, it was a lot of fun! I really enjoyed the flashlight stage.

JMS
03-26-2014, 10:55 AM
Thanks to joshs, cclaxton, and everybody who set up and ran the match. Had a great time screwing up!

LL, ping me if you get the chance. Next Fredericksburg USPSA is 6 Apr, and Cracker Barrel doth beckon...

LittleLebowski
03-26-2014, 10:56 AM
Thanks to joshs, cclaxton, and everybody who set up and ran the match. Had a great time screwing up!

LL, ping me if you get the chance. Next Fredericksburg USPSA is 6 Apr, and Cracker Barrel doth beckon...

Oh damn.....there's a diet recruit joke in there somewhere :D

I'll ping ya.

JMS
03-26-2014, 11:08 AM
Breakfast foods transcend such petty japes.

LittleLebowski
03-26-2014, 11:13 AM
Breakfast foods transcend such petty japes.

Truf. Our love for biscuits and gravy should not be sullied by such weak sallies.

joshs
03-26-2014, 01:49 PM
Thanks to everyone for coming to the match, especially cclaxton, LittleLebowski, and zeroflux for setting up and running the match.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/josh_savani/Sale/3-25-14.jpg

If your classification was not on your scoresheet, then you were marked as "unclassified" on the results. Please note that this is not an official classification and was only done because of the difficulty of searching for historical classifications.
2228

kle
03-26-2014, 02:06 PM
Thanks to everyone for coming to the match, especially cclaxton, LittleLebowski, and zeroflux for setting up and running the match.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/josh_savani/Sale/3-25-14.jpg

If your classification was not on your scoresheet, then you were marked as "unclassified" on the results. Please note that this is not an official classification and was only done because of the difficulty of searching for historical classifications.
2228

Thanks to y'all running the match; I had fun, as usual, and this time running a S&W Model 5904 it felt like I had unlimited ammo =)

Also on that note: the 5904 is DA/SA, and I marked my scoresheet as such...how come I didn't make 1st DA?

Mjohn3006
03-26-2014, 02:06 PM
Awesome match! The flashlight stage destroyed me.

JollyGreen
03-26-2014, 02:48 PM
Thanks guys, it was fun.

Apparently I've got some work to do on my 25 yard shooting.

Cheers,
David

kle
03-26-2014, 03:34 PM
Cut my earmuffcam video together:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcO-nSKd2FE

cclaxton
03-26-2014, 04:25 PM
Cut my earmuffcam video together:

Excellent Video with subtitles, too!!! Great job on video and at match.
Cody

cclaxton
03-26-2014, 05:05 PM
Now that the match is over, let me share a few gaming strategies from my perspective:
1) On Stage 1, it's important to take your time and get the steel to fall. I noticed a few of you who were missing were taking your next shot too quick.
2) On Stage 2, the best way to shoot this was: Shoot the steel first, which allows the swinger to slow down while you take out the three static targets. Also, I noticed a lot of people shooting low on the swinger. It's natural for most shooters to pull down on the gun when you are in a hurry to get off a shot, so try to avoid that temptation. Think of the swinger as a static target at the point when you break the shot. Also, a hit on the head shots outside the white card is 2 seconds, so as long as you get one A-zone hit, and one B-zone hit, if you take more than 2 seconds to get that second A-zone hit, you added time to your score.
3) On Stage 3, it was really important to take your time on the 2nd target from the left head shot so as to avoid the non-threat. From left to right: T1: Two quick body shots, T2: patient head shots, T3: Two quick body shots in the left half to avoid the non-threat or two head shots as fast as you can since there is no non-threat behind the head, T4: Two slower body shots to avoid non-threat. On flashlight work, I noticed a lot of people had difficulty with shadows being cast and you took time moving the flashlight around to see better. If you were going to shoot Strong Hand Only, it would have been better to hold flashlight against your temple because you had to lean out with your head anyway and that maximizes your lighting, although for T1 you could have held FBI style for RH shooters. On T2, you would have benefited by holding flashlight at temple or above your head for a better angle. On T3, anything would have worked. On T4, leaning as far right as possible using any flashlight procedure would work best.

In my experience it is always faster to shoot using two hands, so if you practice using the cigar-style or another two-handed style, that is normally faster. Being able to shoot strong hand only and move the flashlight around is also important to pratice and switching between during a COF might be useful, as it would have been here.

Stage 4: Unless you know you are really good at distance shooting, it would have been better to start with the closer target. The reason is that transitioning back to do makeup shots takes time. It is best to shoot Closest Target as fast as possible, then middle target a little slower, and if you need a makeup on middle target, take it after the next mag change, then take furthest target last, making one or two slower shots to get the A-zone, then unleash 4-5 more quicker ones.

While everyone was very safe and we appreciate that discipline, One safety thing: Most of you have really great finger habits, but a few of you were letting your trigger finger ride into the trigger area during reloading. Please dry-fire practice your reloads and learn to keep that finger well above the trigger area up along the slide/frame. Also, many of you like to do a "muzzle up-angled" reload. Most ranges these days don't allow the muzzle to go that far up. It is a good idea to learn to hold the muzzle down-range. It is normally better to have the muzzle low and pointed at 45 degrees left than to have it pointing up.

Good job by everyone.
Cody

LittleLebowski
03-26-2014, 06:43 PM
Wow, that was not a good match for me. Think it was the no shoot on stage 3 that burned me.

daltona117
03-26-2014, 06:53 PM
Did not expect that result! A personal best for me. Thanks to everyone who set up the shoot. See everyone next month!

abu fitna
03-26-2014, 07:06 PM
First off, thanks very much to all for a good match as always. Definitely a technically challenging course of fire, especially stage 3.

In response to Cody, I must however disagree with a few points. While this may be optimization from a game point of view, not everyone shoots these for such optimization paths.



On T2, you would have benefited by holding flashlight at temple


After hard experience in the kill house with rounds coming back at the light in FoF evolutions, more than ever I believe that this is a very poor choice for light management.



Also, many of you like to do a "muzzle up-angled" reload. Most ranges these days don't allow the muzzle to go that far up. It is a good idea to learn to hold the muzzle down-range.

This is exactly one (among several reasons) I don't shoot at other matches that do not allow for a safe reload (where muzzle is elevated at slidelock, with no traverse across self or other participants and no breaking the 180 rule) simply based on preference for a horizontal technique. This is exactly contraindicated by much training, and while there is a school of thought that wants to hide the reload from adversary point of view by keeping the muzzle oriented towards engagement, this is not a thing that should be mandated by the match (as long as the previously noted safety conditions continue to be met). The same goes for movement in compressed high ready (especially in tight quarters), where the muzzle is not actually at risk of elevation over the berm but results in vapors from those that only believe in extended low ready. I simply stopped attending one prominent local match in another discipline due in large part to these issues (and the attitudes of those promoting a singular view at that club).



Also, a hit on the head shots outside the white card is 2 seconds, so as long as you get one A-zone hit, and one B-zone hit, if you take more than 2 seconds to get that second A-zone hit, you added time to your score.


This is an area for interesting discussion. The idea of makeup shots where multiple hits are required on target - especially when one is dealing with 3 to 6 required rounds, as this match had - is that the target is non-responsive to engagement. It involves a bit of cognitive dissonance to model this behavior in the match course of fire, but casually accept that additional rounds just cost time. Again, I guess it is just the perspective of a bad gamer.

Now without a doubt, there definitely going to be a lot of other things to work on for my personal improvement from this match, for which I am always happy to come away with to consider on Weds. But I firmly believe that one of the things that makes KSTG superior to many of the other matches in the area is that there is a better spirit of the thing, encompassing a wider variety of techniques in application than most of the matches held for other disciplines.

cclaxton
03-26-2014, 07:54 PM
First off, thanks very much to all for a good match as always. Definitely a technically challenging course of fire, especially stage 3.
In response to Cody, I must however disagree with a few points. While this may be optimization from a game point of view, not everyone shoots these for such optimization paths.
After hard experience in the kill house with rounds coming back at the light in FoF evolutions, more than ever I believe that this is a very poor choice for light management.
This is exactly one (among several reasons) I don't shoot at other matches that do not allow for a safe reload (where muzzle is elevated at slidelock, with no traverse across self or other participants and no breaking the 180 rule) simply based on preference for a horizontal technique. This is exactly contraindicated by much training, and while there is a school of thought that wants to hide the reload from adversary point of view by keeping the muzzle oriented towards engagement, this is not a thing that should be mandated by the match (as long as the previously noted safety conditions continue to be met). The same goes for movement in compressed high ready (especially in tight quarters), where the muzzle is not actually at risk of elevation over the berm but results in vapors from those that only believe in extended low ready. I simply stopped attending one prominent local match in another discipline due in large part to these issues (and the attitudes of those promoting a singular view at that club).
This is an area for interesting discussion. The idea of makeup shots where multiple hits are required on target - especially when one is dealing with 3 to 6 required rounds, as this match had - is that the target is non-responsive to engagement. It involves a bit of cognitive dissonance to model this behavior in the match course of fire, but casually accept that additional rounds just cost time. Again, I guess it is just the perspective of a bad gamer.
Now without a doubt, there definitely going to be a lot of other things to work on for my personal improvement from this match, for which I am always happy to come away with to consider on Weds. But I firmly believe that one of the things that makes KSTG superior to many of the other matches in the area is that there is a better spirit of the thing, encompassing a wider variety of techniques in application than most of the matches held for other disciplines.

I totally accept that these are my own recommendations on helping competitors with the gaming parts. Everyone is completely free to do things differently based on how they want to shoot the match, including use of their own tactical procedures including flashlight tactics. For those that wish to sacrifice speed to retain their tactical procedures, that is completely legitimate and I admire them for it. There has been plenty of threads debating the applicability of competition to a real gun fight...I am not trying to stop you, but I recommend we not start another one here.

So disagreeing with the ways I recommended is a perfectly good discussion to have.

On Temple Hold for flashlight: Note that I put that into the context of "If you were going to shoot Strong Hand Only..." I went on to say that I recommend a two-handed flashlight method as faster. And, I went on to say that it is actually good to be able to be proficient at both....for speed and accuracy. If you are saying that a different method should have been used to shoot faster and more accurately, it would be good to hear it. I am always interested in hearing a technique that will be faster.

On the muzzle safety comments: I am not saying that the "Muzzle-up angled" method is wrong or inferior or unsafe or tactically wrong in any manner. Many people are trained this way. This was a comment on range safety and range policy, not functional or methodological. Range operators are under increasing pressure from insurance companies and communities and they impose "reloading downrange" rules to protect their clubs, not because it is inherently unsafe. Indoor ranges impose these kinds of reloading rules to protect their equipment, their lights, and their ceilings. Unfortunately there are many untrained people out there and they make mistakes that we all pay for through these restrictions. All I was trying to say is that people will be able to shoot at just about any range using the "downrange reload" method...that is all.

I encourage everyone competing in KSTG and IDPA and USPSA to shoot the match the way THEY want to shoot the match. I know of one guy who shoots USPSA using cover and concealment and tactical movement...good for him! But I am just trying to get better at the skills needed to shoot fast and accurate. Once I am an A-Class or Expert shooter, I expect to do more tactical training, but for now it's all about being really fast and accurate under pressure. I assume many are in the same situation as me or are just outright gamers.

See you at the next match, and I appreciated your response.
Cody

baronfitz
03-26-2014, 07:57 PM
Certainly not my best work, but not bad for being severely jet-lagged...and all those times I brought an X300 with me, the one time I don't, we have a dark stage. Lesson learned there.

That said, I really enjoyed the dark stage and the variety of the various stages. I too apparently need to work on my longer shots. No idea how I put all of them in the A zone for the first two targets and liberally sprayed the lower left pelvic area of the last target on the last stage...wasn't even shooting a Glock. :o

joshs
03-30-2014, 03:02 PM
Also on that note: the 5904 is DA/SA, and I marked my scoresheet as such...how come I didn't make 1st DA?

Sorry, dude. You were 1st DA. It was just an error on my part.